Free throw positioning question

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref

I want to say it does, but I do not have a reference. We are told it is a lane violation.

You are told incorrectly. Not a violation.

Casebook:

9.1 COMMENT: While Rule 8-1 clearly states which marked lane spaces must
be occupied and by whom, a team forfeits its right to any space not occupied
before the free throw starts (when the ball is placed at the disposal of the free
thrower). Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends. Players who do not occupy a marked lane space may not have
either foot break the vertical plane of the free-throw-line extended and the vertical
plane of the three-point line until the ball touches the ring, or the backboard,
or the free throw ends. No player may enter or leave a marked lane space after
the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower until the restrictions have
ended as outlined.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You are told incorrectly. Not a violation.

Casebook:

9.1 COMMENT: While Rule 8-1 clearly states which marked lane spaces must
be occupied and by whom, a team forfeits its right to any space not occupied
before the free throw starts (when the ball is placed at the disposal of the free
thrower). Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends. Players who do not occupy a marked lane space may not have
either foot break the vertical plane of the free-throw-line extended and the vertical
plane of the three-point line until the ball touches the ring, or the backboard,
or the free throw ends. No player may enter or leave a marked lane space after
the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower until the restrictions have
ended as outlined.

Or what I said in plain English.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Or what I said in plain English.

Sure, but he said he didn't have a reference. Now he does.

[smginnis]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You are told incorrectly. Not a violation.

Casebook:

9.1 COMMENT: While Rule 8-1 clearly states which marked lane spaces must
be occupied and by whom, a team forfeits its right to any space not occupied
before the free throw starts (when the ball is placed at the disposal of the free
thrower). Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends. Players who do not occupy a marked lane space may not have
either foot break the vertical plane of the free-throw-line extended and the vertical
plane of the three-point line until the ball touches the ring, or the backboard,
or the free throw ends. No player may enter or leave a marked lane space after
the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower until the restrictions have
ended as outlined.

If "the space" is defined by the area within the marked lane space and the vertical planes created by the marked lane spaces, I'll make an argument that a player is leaving "the space" and "entering" a new space by moving parts of their body (i.e. torso, butt, arms, hands) outside of their marked space and into the space next to theirs.

I may be wrong, but I hate the idea of allowing kids to stick their arms across another lined up player. Patty cake and fouls soon follow.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by smginnis

If "the space" is defined by the area within the marked lane space and the vertical planes created by the marked lane spaces, I'll make an argument that a player is leaving "the space" and "entering" a new space by moving parts of their body (i.e. torso, butt, arms, hands) outside of their marked space and into the space next to theirs.

I may be wrong, but I hate the idea of allowing kids to stick their arms across another lined up player. Patty cake and fouls soon follow.

Your interp is not supported by rule or common sense. Do you leave your car by sticking your arm out the window?

If they commit a foul as a result of having their hands on each other, then call the foul. But don't make up violations because you don't like the existing rules.

[AHSAA_Ref]

My guess is I'll bring this up in the meeting and be yelled at. (Funny thing, when I get yelled at..I'm usually right!)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by smginnis

If "the space" is defined by the area within the marked lane space and the vertical planes created by the marked lane spaces, I'll make an argument that a player is leaving "the space" and "entering" a new space by moving parts of their body (i.e. torso, butt, arms, hands) outside of their marked space and into the space next to theirs.

I may be wrong, but I hate the idea of allowing kids to stick their arms across another lined up player. Patty cake and fouls soon follow.

The rule very clearly states that breaking the plane with your foot is a violation. If they wanted it called like you do, they would simply state that breaking the plane is a violation.

Patty cake is easily stopped before fouls most of the time. If nothing else, and they both start engaging; call a double foul and play on. They'll get the message.

[AHSAA_Ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The rule very clearly states that breaking the plane with your foot is a violation. If they wanted it called like you do, they would simply state that breaking the plane is a violation.

Patty cake is easily stopped before fouls most of the time. If nothing else, and they both start engaging; call a double foul and play on. They'll get the message.

Actually the word "or" makes that much LESS clear.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref

Actually the word "or" makes that much LESS clear.

I don't think it's unclear. You leave a space by entering another space, which you can't do by waving your hands. That's one way to violate.

OR, you can violate without leaving if you move your feet through the boundary of the space.

What's unclear?

[AHSAA_Ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't think it's unclear. You leave a space by entering another space, which you can't do by waving your hands. That's one way to violate.

OR, you can violate without leaving if you move your feet through the boundary of the space.

What's unclear?

What is the need for BOTH then? I mean, if the ONLY way to leave the space is to put your foot in it, why the need for this, "Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends.

[AHSAA_Ref]

Is it saying, you can't put your foot down OR take your foot and have it dangling in the air in another plane?

Cause THAT makes sense.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref

What is the need for BOTH then? I mean, if the ONLY way to leave the space is to put your foot in it, why the need for this, "Once a free throw starts, no player occupying a marked lane space may
enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane
or lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the
free throw ends.

Consider that you can leave a marked lane space by extending one's foot past the rear or front plane just as well as a side plane. Fed defines 'marked lane space' as 3' deep, beginning at outer edge of 3 sec lane. Recent change dictates that one foot must remain in close proximity to nearer lane line, IIRC.
CAVEAT: Although I post with the voice of authority, I could be entirely wrong as I am a former coach!!

[ref3808]

Indicates that extending the arms over the area between the lane spaces is legal if there is no contact. Of course it says nothing about extending into another contestant's lane space.

[rsl]

9-1-3d clearly defines what it means to enter or leave:

No player shall enter a marked lane space or leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space.

This clearly does not prohibit reaching unless you touch the floor

[26 Year Gap]

"Knock off the sword fights." You know what they are when you see them. But if there is no contact*, there is no violation. [This is more of a preventative measure when both players--usually girls--think their opponent is the six-fingered man]. There is a reason 'foot' or 'feet' is described in the rule.

*Not that there is a violation in this instance. Just preventative officiating. I still haven't figured out why players think they can jump higher with their arms outstretched.