Substitution Question

[Babyface]

Team A request/granted a 60 second timeout. After approx. 1 minute, all 10 players from both teams come out of their respective huddles and get into postition on the court. My partner is moments away from putting the ball into play when coach of team B sends a player B6 to the scorers table. I tell B6 that she will have to wait until the next opportunity to sub. Coach says that the first horn had never sounded and we should not deny her entry. I am certain that about a minute had expired, the timer just neglected to sound the horn. Should the substitution been allowed?

[Jurassic Referee]

The sub reported to the bench before the warning signal sounded. You have no rules justification to deny entry to that sub. See NFHS rule 3-3-1(a).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The sub reported to the bench before the warning signal sounded. You have no rules justification to deny entry to that sub. See NFHS rule 3-3-1(a).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yep, and talk to the timer. They should have (of) sounded the horn at 45 seconds, and again at a minute.

[SAK]

Preventative officiating: when the horn sounds (or should sound) I inform the teams that the horn has sounded. This should take care of the problem.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SAK

Preventative officiating: when the horn sounds (or should sound) I inform the teams that the horn has sounded. This should take care of the problem.

Yep, and in middle school, AAU, YMCA, or similar games it's not uncommon to need to remind the table to hit the warning horn.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAK

Preventative officiating: when the horn sounds (or should sound) I inform the teams that the horn has sounded. This should take care of the problem.

Second preventative officiating: When both teams come out, have the timer sound the first horn and then (after a short delay -- up to 15 seconds) the second horn.

[Back In The Saddle]

So what if at 30 seconds into a full time out both teams are ready, but before the ball is put in play a sub comes to the table (assume before the 15 second horn would have normally sounded)? Do we allow that sub?

In NCAA, the calling team may end a TO early by notifying the official. The official then has the timer sound the warning horn immediately and the other team then has 15 seconds to be ready to play (5-14d). NFHS has no such provision.

Bob, would you routinely have the timer sound the warning horn immediately if both teams are breaking the huddle before the warning horn?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Babyface

I am certain that about a minute had expired, the timer just neglected to sound the horn.

You need a hornier timer.

[chseagle]

Rule 3-1a says:

"A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving
his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the
time-out."

However in your case, no warning horn, it sounds as if Rule 2-3 shall be applied:

"The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules."

I am not seeing anything in the rules covering what should be done if no warning horn/signal is sounded.

Originally Posted by Babyface

Team A request/granted a 60 second timeout. After approx. 1 minute, all 10 players from both teams come out of their respective huddles and get into postition on the court. My partner is moments away from putting the ball into play when coach of team B sends a player B6 to the scorers table. I tell B6 that she will have to wait until the next opportunity to sub. Coach says that the first horn had never sounded and we should not deny her entry. I am certain that about a minute had expired, the timer just neglected to sound the horn. Should the substitution been allowed?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I am not seeing anything in the rules covering what should be done if no warning horn/signal is sounded.

It's in rule 11 and involves a tazer and/or pepper spray.

[chseagle]

There is not a Rule 11 as the last rule listed is 10-6-11.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's in rule 11 and involves a tazer and/or pepper spray.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's in rule 11 and involves a tazer and/or pepper spray.

Originally Posted by chseagle

There is not a Rule 11 as the last rule listed is 10-6-11.

Oh, that's right, you got the timer/scorer's abridged version.

[chseagle]

I have an e-copy (button-masher) of the 2009-2010 rule book & a hard copy (a real page turner) of the 2010-2011 rules book.

Neither one of them is abridged.

When the season does come around, I'll be having three things with me at the table concerning printed material.

2010-2011 Rules book, WIAA Shot clock instructions & Instructions To and Duties of Scorers and Timers for Basketball Games

The latter 2 I've had with me for the past 2 years at the table.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Oh, that's right, you got the timer/scorer's abridged version.