Substitution Question

[Babyface]

Team A request/granted a 60 second timeout. After approx. 1 minute, all 10 players from both teams come out of their respective huddles and get into postition on the court. My partner is moments away from putting the ball into play when coach of team B sends a player B6 to the scorers table. I tell B6 that she will have to wait until the next opportunity to sub. Coach says that the first horn had never sounded and we should not deny her entry. I am certain that about a minute had expired, the timer just neglected to sound the horn. Should the substitution been allowed?

[Jurassic Referee]

The sub reported to the bench before the warning signal sounded. You have no rules justification to deny entry to that sub. See NFHS rule 3-3-1(a).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The sub reported to the bench before the warning signal sounded. You have no rules justification to deny entry to that sub. See NFHS rule 3-3-1(a).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yep, and talk to the timer. They should have (of) sounded the horn at 45 seconds, and again at a minute.

[SAK]

Preventative officiating: when the horn sounds (or should sound) I inform the teams that the horn has sounded. This should take care of the problem.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SAK

Preventative officiating: when the horn sounds (or should sound) I inform the teams that the horn has sounded. This should take care of the problem.

Yep, and in middle school, AAU, YMCA, or similar games it's not uncommon to need to remind the table to hit the warning horn.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAK

Preventative officiating: when the horn sounds (or should sound) I inform the teams that the horn has sounded. This should take care of the problem.

Second preventative officiating: When both teams come out, have the timer sound the first horn and then (after a short delay -- up to 15 seconds) the second horn.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Babyface

I am certain that about a minute had expired, the timer just neglected to sound the horn.

You need a hornier timer.

[Back In The Saddle]

So what if at 30 seconds into a full time out both teams are ready, but before the ball is put in play a sub comes to the table (assume before the 15 second horn would have normally sounded)? Do we allow that sub?

In NCAA, the calling team may end a TO early by notifying the official. The official then has the timer sound the warning horn immediately and the other team then has 15 seconds to be ready to play (5-14d). NFHS has no such provision.

Bob, would you routinely have the timer sound the warning horn immediately if both teams are breaking the huddle before the warning horn?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So what if at 30 seconds into a full time out both teams are ready, but before the ball is put in play a sub comes to the table (assume before the 15 second horn would have normally sounded)? Do we allow that sub?

The administering official on the throw-in is supposed to blow their whistle on a throw-in after a TO or unusual delay. Use the whistle in lieu of the horn.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The administering official on the throw-in is supposed to blow their whistle on a throw-in after a TO or unusual delay. Use the whistle in lieu of the horn.

So we'll allow the sub up until the whistle? That makes sense to me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So what if at 30 seconds into a full time out both teams are ready, but before the ball is put in play a sub comes to the table (assume before the 15 second horn would have normally sounded)? Do we allow that sub?

In NCAA, the calling team may end a TO early by notifying the official. The official then has the timer sound the warning horn immediately and the other team then has 15 seconds to be ready to play (5-14d). NFHS has no such provision.

Bob, would you routinely have the timer sound the warning horn immediately if both teams are breaking the huddle before the warning horn?

Yes I would. In NFHS, the TO can be shortened if both teams agree (or whatever teh specific wording is). If they both come out of the huddle, I'm considering that "agreeing" (or as having notified the officials, or ...)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So we'll allow the sub up until the whistle? That makes sense to me.

Not definitively covered afaik, but it also makes sense to me to do that.

[Adam]

2-3!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

2-3!

Perhaps not entirely 2-3...If both teams are back on the court and the administering official is about to put the ball in play, then this would seem to come into play: "The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately. If the ball is about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld."

[chseagle]

Page 81 of the rules book in the 2010-2011 Major Rules Differences (NFHS vs. NCAA) states under time out(s) reduction for NFHS:

"Reduced if both teams are ready"

I've gotten in the habit of sounding the horn if one team is ready while the other is still in the huddle.

Concerning the timer not sounding the horn when they should, they are pre-occupied with something else, not properly trained, or not watching the stopwatch/time out timer.