Substitution Question

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I've gotten in the habit of sounding the horn if one team is ready while the other is still in the huddle.

Get out of that habit, or stop complaining about other scorers/timers who aren't doing their jobs properly.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Perhaps not entirely 2-3...If both teams are back on the court and the administering official is about to put the ball in play, then this would seem to come into play: "The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately. If the ball is about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld."

Agreed, but in a situation where both teams came out at 40 seconds, the timer decided to skip the horn, and just before you're ready to hand the ball the thrower a sub shows up at the table?

[chseagle]

Rule 3-1a says:

"A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving
his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the
time-out."

However in your case, no warning horn, it sounds as if Rule 2-3 shall be applied:

"The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules."

I am not seeing anything in the rules covering what should be done if no warning horn/signal is sounded.

Originally Posted by Babyface

Team A request/granted a 60 second timeout. After approx. 1 minute, all 10 players from both teams come out of their respective huddles and get into postition on the court. My partner is moments away from putting the ball into play when coach of team B sends a player B6 to the scorers table. I tell B6 that she will have to wait until the next opportunity to sub. Coach says that the first horn had never sounded and we should not deny her entry. I am certain that about a minute had expired, the timer just neglected to sound the horn. Should the substitution been allowed?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Get out of that habit, or stop complaining about other scorers/timers who aren't doing their jobs properly.

Snaq, it also depends on how close to the warning horn the one team is still huddling as to if I sound the horn.

Majority of the time, it's so close to the warning horn (within 5 secs.) that I just sound the warning horn.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I am not seeing anything in the rules covering what should be done if no warning horn/signal is sounded.

It's in rule 11 and involves a tazer and/or pepper spray.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Snaq, it also depends on how close to the warning horn the one team is still huddling as to if I sound the horn.

Majority of the time, it's so close to the warning horn (within 5 secs.) that I just sound the warning horn.

Why? You've cut off 5 seconds of their allowed time to submit a sub.

[chseagle]

There is not a Rule 11 as the last rule listed is 10-6-11.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's in rule 11 and involves a tazer and/or pepper spray.

[chseagle]

Example: 60 sec. TO by team A, Team A is ready to play at 40 secs. while Team B is still in huddle (warning horn sounds at 45 secs.)

The opportunity to bring in a sub is still there.

When I do sound the warning horn earlier than normal, due to one team being ready to play, the time remaining is normally 10 or more secs. until the warning horn (although I said in earlier post & example within 5 secs.), there is still time being allowed for subs.

I only do this during the 60 sec. TOs & it rarely happens (once or twice a season).

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why? You've cut off 5 seconds of their allowed time to submit a sub.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Example: 60 sec. TO by team A, Team A is ready to play at 40 secs. while Team B is still in huddle (warning horn sounds at 45 secs.)

The opportunity to bring in a sub is still there.

When I do sound the warning horn earlier than normal, due to one team being ready to play, the time remaining is normally 10 or more secs. until the warning horn (although I said in earlier post & example within 5 secs.), there is still time being allowed for subs.

I only do this during the 60 sec. TOs & it rarely happens (once or twice a season).

Here's the problem; by sounding the warning horn early, you're telling the officials that 45 seconds have elapsed and they are not going to allow a sub if they're following procedure. They have no way of knowing you're 10 seconds ahead of pace.

There is no reason to sound the horn just because one team has come out of the huddle.

DON'T SOUND THE HORN UNTIL IT'S THE PROPER TIME.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's in rule 11 and involves a tazer and/or pepper spray.

Originally Posted by chseagle

There is not a Rule 11 as the last rule listed is 10-6-11.

Oh, that's right, you got the timer/scorer's abridged version.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chseagle

1) Page 81 of the rules book in the 2010-2011 Major Rules Differences (NFHS vs. NCAA) states under time out(s) reduction for NFHS:
"Reduced if both teams are ready"
I've gotten in the habit of sounding the horn if one team is ready while the other is still in the huddle.

2) Concerning the timer not sounding the horn when they should, they are pre-occupied with something else, not properly trained, or not watching the stopwatch/time out timer.

1) Whyinthehell would you ever do anything like that when you KNOW both teams aren't ready? Rule 2-12-4 tells you exactly when to blow your horn on timeouts. Just follow the rules, mind your own business and keep your nose out of things in the game that are absolutely no concern at all of yours. And furthermore....lah me.

2) If timers aren't properly trained they should be directed...nay, ordered.... it should be made mandatory....mandatory, I tell ya....to enrol in Chseagle's Four-Star Summer Timing Camp For Wayward Timers. Motto- "Watch a legend in action!"

[chseagle]

Snaq,

You forget that majority of the games I do as timer are at the JV/C level so both the coaches & officials are wanting to keep the game moving in order to be available for Varsity or wanting to watch Varsity.

As I stated it rarely happens. Those times it does happen I hear no complants from the coaches or floor officials.

I follow the timing regulations fully, the sounding of the horn early is a 1:200 to 1:300 happening & at the request of the floor officials & coaches by mutual consent.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here's the problem; by sounding the warning horn early, you're telling the officials that 45 seconds have elapsed and they are not going to allow a sub if they're following procedure. They have no way of knowing you're 10 seconds ahead of pace.

There is no reason to sound the horn just because one team has come out of the huddle.

DON'T SOUND THE HORN UNTIL IT'S THE PROPER TIME.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Example: 60 sec. TO by team A, Team A is ready to play at 40 secs. while Team B is still in huddle (warning horn sounds at 45 secs.)

The opportunity to bring in a sub is still there.

When I do sound the warning horn earlier than normal, due to one team being ready to play, the time remaining is normally 10 or more secs. until the warning horn (although I said in earlier post & example within 5 secs.), there is still time being allowed for subs.

No, there is NOT time being allowed for subs. If you allow a sub after the horn, you're going directly against the rules. The sub has to be there BEFORE you sound the warning signal. Says so right in rule 3-3-1(a). Also see case book play 3.3.1Sit A that says any and all substititions MUST be made before the warning signal is given. Case book plays 3.3.1SitB&C tell you the exact same thing.

You're making up your own rules, chseagle, not following the ones you've been given. Out here, we hang timers for sumthin' like that.

[chseagle]

I have an e-copy (button-masher) of the 2009-2010 rule book & a hard copy (a real page turner) of the 2010-2011 rules book.

Neither one of them is abridged.

When the season does come around, I'll be having three things with me at the table concerning printed material.

2010-2011 Rules book, WIAA Shot clock instructions & Instructions To and Duties of Scorers and Timers for Basketball Games

The latter 2 I've had with me for the past 2 years at the table.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Oh, that's right, you got the timer/scorer's abridged version.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Agreed, but in a situation where both teams came out at 40 seconds, the timer decided to skip the horn, and just before you're ready to hand the ball the thrower a sub shows up at the table?

Right, and if I have sounded my whistle...to my way of thinking I have completed the final thing that must be done before the ball can be put in play. IOW, the ball is about to become live, and I should withhold the beckon.