Coach's Question, Need Help Responding

[PIAA REF]

I have had 2 girls varsity coaches approach me in the past week with the same question. I am not sure how to answere them fully. Let me know if you have any idea how to answer them better than I have already. The question that these 2 coaches brought up was why is it that they see top notch officials not doing Varsity Girls. I replied to them that we as officials are independent contractors. They are upset that they see top officials officiating jr. High games but these same officials will not ref girls games. The one coach even questioned how is that permitted with Title 9. I said since we are independent contractors it has nothing to do with title 9. I am sure they thought as did I that my answer was a little vague. Do you have any better way to answer this. We do have some officials that do only boys varsity, but they may pick up a jr high game here and there because it pays well. These officials refuse to take girls assignments for various reasons. What should I say to these 2 coaches that are offended by such?

[JRutledge]

The answer is simple. They do not want to work girl's basketball and they do not have to work girl's basketball. Most officials are male and they see themselves working what they played or what they watch on TV. The rating comparisons for Men’s and Women’s basketball are clear. You could find the World Championships all over the TV this past August; you could not find the Women's championships but on the NBA network. I think it is that simple.

Peace

[tref]

Independent contractors, PERIOD! We work who we want, when we want & with whom we want.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by tref

Independent contractors, PERIOD! We work who we want, when we want & with whom we want.

Now you know it's not that simple. You work where your assignor tells you, at contests sanctioned by the state, wearing the proper uniform, using the correct rules and mechanics, and subject to applicable local, state, and federal laws.

Including Title IX.

[tref]

IDK mbyron... we have the accept/decline boxes for every game we are offered via Arbiter.

Personally, I check the accept box for any assignment offered, regardless of gender or level. Many of our Big Dawgs will not travel past certain limits or work a 2 person game or even work girls games.

Most assignors don't offer the more skilled officials girls games anyway, unless its part of a double-header.

We are required to work a certain amount of girls & lower-level games to be considered eligible for post-season.

All in all, I stick by my original comment. Lets face it unlike college & up, at the HS level they need us more than we need them.

[Indianaref]

Why is it that we don't see top notch coaches not doing Varsity Girls?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

IDK mbyron... we have the accept/decline boxes for every game we are offered via Arbiter.

Personally, I check the accept box for any assignment offered, regardless of gender or level. Many of our Big Dawgs will not travel past certain limits or work a 2 person game or even work girls games.

Most assignors don't offer the more skilled officials girls games anyway, unless its part of a double-header.

We are required to work a certain amount of girls & lower-level games to be considered eligible for post-season.

All in all, I stick by my original comment. Lets face it unlike college & up, at the HS level they need us more than we need them.

I only turn games down do to scheduling conflicts I hadn't had a chance to block on arbiter.

In CO, officials have to work a certain number of girls games and a certain number of jv games to be eligible for post season. Most try to "double dip" on the requirement by working JV girls games.

The fact that some states have this as a requirement shows that the preference is widespread. Whether it's perception or not really doesn't matter, but there are some officials who would rather work a JH boys game than a varsity girls (or even a college women) game.

The only way this would be a Title IX issue would be if schools or assigners were offering bigger incentives for the boys games (higher fees, 3-whistle vs 2-whistle, etc.)

[Rufus]

This isn't an issue in GA. Our association works both women's and men's games with the same crew (i.e., same 2-man for JV, same 3-man for V).

What's interesting, though, is at the camp I attended this year it was expressly stated that the quickest way to become a college official is to concentrate on the women's game. If my aspirations were such that I wanted to break into college officiating it would definitely be on the women's side for this reason. Yes I realize this perception on my part and clinicians at the camp may be mistaken but, if it isn't, it would seem concentrating on the women's game would the most efficient way of accomplishing that goal.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Rufus

What's interesting, though, is at the camp I attended this year it was expressly stated that the quickest way to become a college official is to concentrate on the women's game. If my aspirations were such that I wanted to break into college officiating it would definitely be on the women's side for this reason. Yes I realize this perception on my part and clinicians at the camp may be mistaken but, if it isn't, it would seem concentrating on the women's game would the most efficient way of accomplishing that goal.

They were mistaken. Maybe JRut was at the camp! Admittedly it was the case 'back in the day' but it is hyper competitive now.
It appears each of us have different procedures about how they are assigned games. I would take what the coaches say with a grain of salt and say something like "What am I?" smile and move on. It is a no win argument.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Judtech

They were mistaken. Maybe JRut was at the camp!

Never went to a college camp for women's basketball. The guy I worked for assigned by the Women's and the Men's side in a D3 conference. He assigned officials to both sides and was fired as a result from that conference. That says all I need to know about that side.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Never went to a college camp for women's basketball. The guy I worked for assigned by the Women's and the Men's side in a D3 conference. He assigned officials to both sides and was fired as a result from that conference. That says all I need to know about that side.

Peace

I've been sitting here on the sidelines litening to this discussion, but now I have to insert my 2 cents.

Jeff, I'm curious as to your comment above, and hope that you would expand a little more on it. Which "side" are you talking about? What specifically is it that you now know?

I know there was a D-3 assignor up in your area who used to assign both the women's and men's games in at least one conference, because I know several women's college officials from my area that worked for him as well. There were many times these officials would work a women's game that he assigned, and their partner(s) would be officials that primarily work on the men's side. Many times (but not all), the officials who primarily worked the men's side did not know the women's mechanics and rules, and several times expressed disappointment that they had to work a women's game. There was one NCAA tournament game where one of these men's officials showed up in the locker room before the game, and asked, "So, which mechanics are we using tonight?" He was dead serious. WTF, at a Tournament game?! So it is no wonder most of these games were called inconsistenly, and as a result, I understand the conference decided they would need to find assignors that were more in tune to the differences between the men's and women's games.

So, what it tells me is that there are still officials and assignors that look down upon the women's game, and don't consider it as important. I'm also kind of surprised some these same officials will tell me directly that they don't want to work a women's college game because it's a harder game to officiate. So, in my experience, in some cases, NCAA men's official's will look at the women's game as a lesser game, while that feeling is not returned. It is also the same at the high school level between boys and girls' officials.

I'm not here to pick a fight over which game is better, or who has more egos, or who's right. The 2 games are different, and each one takes a slightly different skill-set to officiate at the highest level. Each one of us has chosen a different game, and I have the upmost repect for those that are able to work at the highest levels, whether it's a State Tournament high school official, NCAA D-1 official, or NBA official.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Never went to a college camp for women's basketball. The guy I worked for assigned by the Women's and the Men's side in a D3 conference. He assigned officials to both sides and was fired as a result from that conference. That says all I need to know about that side.

Peace

Yeah, I agree about THAT side!!

Also, not sure how Title IX would play into the argument. This is a case, for lack of a better term, of "Serperate But Equal". On the NFHS side, so long as the officials calling the games are certified (based on whatever that criteria would be) then there is no Title IX issue. Now if a school/district/state were using "certified" officials for the one and not the other, THEN you might have a problem. On the NCAA side you have an even split on the "corporate" side in Indy, both men and women are provided the same resources and each have their own, seperate, evaluation procedures. So they are good there.

[centkyref]

Not that this will help you at all in answering the coach, but in KY it is a new requirement this year that to work post season an official has to work a number of girls games. I believe that number is 8 or 9, but I can't remember. I'm sure we had the same thing here where the girls coaches weren't happy with not seeing the top-ranked officials enough.

[mbyron]

Actually, you could make a Title IX case here: if better officials do not work girls games, then it would seem that the girls have been "excluded from participation in, [been] denied the benefits of, or [been] subjected to discrimination under [an] education program." The schools and assignors could be held liable, even though officials are indeed independent contractors. The argument would be that the schools and assignors are complicit in an arrangement that effectively denies benefits to girls by denying them access to better officiating.

I'm not saying such a suit would win; indeed, it would probably never go to trial. But I think it's incorrect to claim that, because we're independent contractors, Title IX is irrelevant to us: once you step through a school's door, it's relevant, whether the check has the school's name on it or not. The fix is easy: if you want games from an assignor, you take both boys and girls.

I'm a little surprised that this suit hasn't actually been filed somewhere or other. I can't possibly be the first person to think of this argument.

If I were asked this question, I would simply tell the coach the truth: some officials don't regard the girls' game as real basketball. Some of those are "better" officials, and some are not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Actually, you could make a Title IX case here: if better officials do not work girls games, then it would seem that the girls have been "excluded from participation in, [been] denied the benefits of, or [been] subjected to discrimination under [an] education program." The schools and assignors could be held liable, even though officials are indeed independent contractors. The argument would be that the schools and assignors are complicit in an arrangement that effectively denies benefits to girls by denying them access to better officiating.

I'm not saying such a suit would win; indeed, it would probably never go to trial. But I think it's incorrect to claim that, because we're independent contractors, Title IX is irrelevant to us: once you step through a school's door, it's relevant, whether the check has the school's name on it or not. The fix is easy: if you want games from an assignor, you take both boys and girls.

I'm a little surprised that this suit hasn't actually been filed somewhere or other. I can't possibly be the first person to think of this argument.

If I were asked this question, I would simply tell the coach the truth: some officials don't regard the girls' game as real basketball. Some of those are "better" officials, and some are not.

Keep in mind that Title IX is a Federal statue. Independent contractor laws are often based on state tax laws. I do not think my state would want to go there.

Peace