Coach's Question, Need Help Responding

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Rufus

What's interesting, though, is at the camp I attended this year it was expressly stated that the quickest way to become a college official is to concentrate on the women's game. If my aspirations were such that I wanted to break into college officiating it would definitely be on the women's side for this reason. Yes I realize this perception on my part and clinicians at the camp may be mistaken but, if it isn't, it would seem concentrating on the women's game would the most efficient way of accomplishing that goal.

They were mistaken. Maybe JRut was at the camp! Admittedly it was the case 'back in the day' but it is hyper competitive now.
It appears each of us have different procedures about how they are assigned games. I would take what the coaches say with a grain of salt and say something like "What am I?" smile and move on. It is a no win argument.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Judtech

They were mistaken. Maybe JRut was at the camp!

Never went to a college camp for women's basketball. The guy I worked for assigned by the Women's and the Men's side in a D3 conference. He assigned officials to both sides and was fired as a result from that conference. That says all I need to know about that side.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It might be, but it might also challenge the coach's assumption / perception that "high level" officials aren't working girl's games.

Excellent point - as always - Mr. Jenkins.

What criteria are these two coaches using for determining who is a "high level" official? They are making the assumption that the officials they watch do the boys games are somehow better than the officials doing their (girls) games. Why do they make that assumption?

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well you obviously do not work in a system like mine. Every level and every conference has an assignor. You have to accept games from different sources and the higher you go up they do not care that you are working levels below, but if you are not available when they want you, they will find someone else. So often officials have to choose or they have to adhere to the standards of that assignor.

Peace

Nope. Our association gets all of/a share of the games from a handful of conferences, at all levels from Jr High up to Varsity, and then our assigner doles them out to the officials in our association based upon experience, ability, availability, willingness to travel, how many times you've worked a game for that school already, etc.

I also do some rec league stuff, with a different assignor, and some travel-team stuff with 2 different assignors. I've told all four of them that the first assigner to schedule me for a game is the assignor whose game I will be working on that day.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Actually, you could make a Title IX case here...

I don't think you can. The independent contractor relationship allows each and every official to take or reject any specific assignment....for whatever reason. To say this is a title IX issue would essentially require that specific officials apply for jobs they do not want or to accept jobs they didn't do not want and/or didn't apply for. Those types of things can't be required of independent contractors. If we were employees, it might be different.

The assignors are just agents who are matching officials with the games....and within the constraints of independent contractor laws. While they can exert influence on officials to work game A in order to get game B, the two are really seperate.....but the assignor might not call them the next time.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I don't think you can. The independent contractor relationship allows each and every official to take or reject any specific assignment....for whatever reason. To say this is a title IX issue would essentially require that specific officials apply for jobs they do not want or to accept jobs they didn't do not want and/or didn't apply for. Those types of things can't be required of independent contractors. If we were employees, it might be different.

The assignors are just agents who are matching officials with the games....and within the constraints of independent contractor laws. While they can exert influence on officials to work game A in order to get game B, the two are really seperate.....but the assignor might not call them the next time.

+1

so basically, we reserve the right...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Never went to a college camp for women's basketball. The guy I worked for assigned by the Women's and the Men's side in a D3 conference. He assigned officials to both sides and was fired as a result from that conference. That says all I need to know about that side.

Peace

I've been sitting here on the sidelines litening to this discussion, but now I have to insert my 2 cents.

Jeff, I'm curious as to your comment above, and hope that you would expand a little more on it. Which "side" are you talking about? What specifically is it that you now know?

I know there was a D-3 assignor up in your area who used to assign both the women's and men's games in at least one conference, because I know several women's college officials from my area that worked for him as well. There were many times these officials would work a women's game that he assigned, and their partner(s) would be officials that primarily work on the men's side. Many times (but not all), the officials who primarily worked the men's side did not know the women's mechanics and rules, and several times expressed disappointment that they had to work a women's game. There was one NCAA tournament game where one of these men's officials showed up in the locker room before the game, and asked, "So, which mechanics are we using tonight?" He was dead serious. WTF, at a Tournament game?! So it is no wonder most of these games were called inconsistenly, and as a result, I understand the conference decided they would need to find assignors that were more in tune to the differences between the men's and women's games.

So, what it tells me is that there are still officials and assignors that look down upon the women's game, and don't consider it as important. I'm also kind of surprised some these same officials will tell me directly that they don't want to work a women's college game because it's a harder game to officiate. So, in my experience, in some cases, NCAA men's official's will look at the women's game as a lesser game, while that feeling is not returned. It is also the same at the high school level between boys and girls' officials.

I'm not here to pick a fight over which game is better, or who has more egos, or who's right. The 2 games are different, and each one takes a slightly different skill-set to officiate at the highest level. Each one of us has chosen a different game, and I have the upmost repect for those that are able to work at the highest levels, whether it's a State Tournament high school official, NCAA D-1 official, or NBA official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Nope. Our association gets all of/a share of the games from a handful of conferences, at all levels from Jr High up to Varsity, and then our assigner doles them out to the officials in our association based upon experience, ability, availability, willingness to travel, how many times you've worked a game for that school already, etc.

Not sure what you are saying "nope" to, because your system is still not like the system that many (not all) work in. I do not get any games from an association. I get games only from assignors. I get games from places where the assignor belongs to a completely different area or association than where I am located. And the assignor that gives high school games does not refer to the guy that assigns JH games.

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

I also do some rec league stuff, with a different assignor, and some travel-team stuff with 2 different assignors. I've told all four of them that the first assigner to schedule me for a game is the assignor whose game I will be working on that day.

Good for you. But I work for about 12 different people and one does not care what the other one is doing. And when playoffs and other considerations are being made, I am not working a JH game (even in my back yard) and turn away the college game even with the travel. Not going to happen. The only thing I will not do is take a game at one level and then take another game at that same level. My goals are not to work the Men's league championship game so all levels have different priorities.

You say that this is your second year, you will learn soon enough.

Peace

[BayStateRef]

I am not a lawyer, but....

The Title IX responsibility is with the schools. If a player (or coach or parent...) believes a girl is not getting an "equal opportunity" because the officiating is not equal on the girls' side, it is not the assignor or official that will be sued...it will be the school district.

There is nothing that requires the school district to use assignors (and I know that in some states, they do not). And there is nothing that requires officials to work for assignors. But if such a lawsuit were to proceed...and if some court found merit in the contention, then it would be up to the school district to come up with a remedy.

I would be quite interested in hearing how school districts (or leagues) would decide who are the "better" officials. But I also believe that it can be done. One of my high school assignors has made it a priority to find better officials for a girls league. He was aggressively recruited officials who he believes are "better" and has opted not to re-hire officials that he believes are not good enough. The coaches and ADs have told him they have noticed an improvement in the quality of officials they have seen over the last few years.

As in any open market, this assignor has to compete with other assignors for the "better" officials. But it can be done.

[KJUmp]

Our state has two separate HS boards, one for boys and one for girls, each with it's own assignor. Most officials on the boy's board are also on the girl's board, but the girl's board does have a high number of officials who are on the girl's board only.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I've been sitting here on the sidelines litening to this discussion, but now I have to insert my 2 cents.

Jeff, I'm curious as to your comment above, and hope that you would expand a little more on it. Which "side" are you talking about? What specifically is it that you now know?

I know there was a D-3 assignor up in your area who used to assign both the women's and men's games in at least one conference, because I know several women's college officials from my area that worked for him as well. There were many times these officials would work a women's game that he assigned, and their partner(s) would be officials that primarily work on the men's side. Many times (but not all), the officials who primarily worked the men's side did not know the women's mechanics and rules, and several times expressed disappointment that they had to work a women's game.

I am not going to get too much into that here. All I will say is now that conference has two separate assignors for each side of their gender assigning. I will let you conclude what that means.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, what it tells me is that there are still officials and assignors that look down upon the women's game, and don't consider it as important. I'm also kind of surprised some these same officials will tell me directly that they don't want to work a women's college game because it's a harder game to officiate. So, in my experience, in some cases, NCAA men's official's will look at the women's game as a lesser game, while that feeling is not returned. It is also the same at the high school level between boys and girls' officials.

What I will never understand is why if someone tells you what they want to do they are looking "down" on that level? I do not want to work Pro-Am ball or Men's league, does that mean I am looking down on that level? I just have no desire to work that game. And in the current camp system the individuals that are assigning each side you cannot work both. That is fine with me. Again I have no desire to watch a NCAAW game let alone watch one. And if there are those that feel it is a lesser game, why would anyone care? I do not begrudge those that decide not to watch the NBA. It is not enjoyable to everyone and certainly not enjoyable to all officials.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm not here to pick a fight over which game is better, or who has more egos, or who's right. The 2 games are different, and each one takes a slightly different skill-set to officiate at the highest level. Each one of us has chosen a different game, and I have the upmost repect for those that are able to work at the highest levels, whether it's a State Tournament high school official, NCAA D-1 official, or NBA official.

I was not taking that way. Unlike some people here I have met you.

But I do get a little tired of the attitude that someone has to be made to feel bad because they choose not to work girl's or woman's basketball. I like my 3 games a week normal schedule. Adding woman's ball would get me fired from my men's leagues and kept me back from working earlier because it was assumed I was doing games for that person you mentioned. And I would burn out by mid-December. I do not work all levels of football either, but no one spends their time trying to lecture officials for only working high school games. Why do we go through this on the basketball side?

Peace

[Rich]

This type of question all depends on who does your assigning.

Around here I take games from athletic directors (non-conference) and commissioners (conference). If I don't want to work girls games, there would be some assignors that wouldn't assign me any games. That's the choice of that assignor.

Same thing with the schools.

I choose to work both, but many around here work only boys games. It's really up to the officials and the hiring assignors. Nobody can force an official around here to work a girls game if they do not want to.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

I am not a lawyer, but....

The Title IX responsibility is with the schools. If a player (or coach or parent...) believes a girl is not getting an "equal opportunity" because the officiating is not equal on the girls' side, it is not the assignor or official that will be sued...it will be the school district.

There is nothing that requires the school district to use assignors (and I know that in some states, they do not). And there is nothing that requires officials to work for assignors. But if such a lawsuit were to proceed...and if some court found merit in the contention, then it would be up to the school district to come up with a remedy.

I agree. The burden is on the school district to provide equal quality officials, and if they use assignors they will pass that burden along to assignors. Either way, any school or state might feel obligated to follow Kentucky and require officials to do both.

As an independent contractor, you're free to accept the terms of the contract offered, or work somewhere else.

Right now, Ohio requires doing some number of varsity girls games to be eligible for the girls post-season, and the same number of varsity boys games to be eligible for the boys post-season.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Nobody can force an official around here to work a girls game if they do not want to.

True, but it might come to the point where those unwilling to work girls games won't be offered boys games. That doesn't constitute "force," though they will have a choice to make.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I agree. The burden is on the school district to provide equal quality officials, and if they use assignors they will pass that burden along to assignors. Either way, any school or state might feel obligated to follow Kentucky and require officials to do both.

As an independent contractor, you're free to accept the terms of the contract offered, or work somewhere else.

Right now, Ohio requires doing some number of varsity girls games to be eligible for the girls post-season, and the same number of varsity boys games to be eligible for the boys post-season.

You can make a requirement all you want, that does not mean that you will automatically get the same people. What you might do is get certain people to bow out of your post season. Or they will not give the effort just to work the post season they want to. Bad policy all the way around.

Peace