3-5-2c discussion

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Knee and ankle braces which are unaltered from the manufacturer’s original design/production are permitted and do not require any additional padding/covering.

2010-11 NFHS MAJOR EDITORIAL CHANGES: Clarified the requirements for guards, casts and braces and that a protective face mask shall be worn molded to the face.

I just realized that this thread is probably based on this editorial change. We haven't had our interpretation/rule change/mechanics change meeting yet. I was wondering when the "exposed hinges on the knee brace rule" got changed? I guess that it was very recently.

[Back In The Saddle]

Here's this year's: "Knee and ankle braces which are unaltered from the manufacturer’s original design are permitted and do not require any additional padding/covering. Equipment which could cut or cause an opponent to have an abrasion is also always illegal and, therefore, is prohibited."

This is last year's: "Knee and ankle braces are permitted, but all exposed hinges must be covered. Equipment which could cut or cause an opponent to have an abrasion is also always illegal and, therefore, is prohibited."

So there is no longer a specific requirement for exposed hinges to be covered, but there is still a provision allowing the referee to rule it illegal if there is something about the brace that could cause a cut, which is what (I believe) we worried about with exposed hinges.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Here's this year's: "Knee and ankle braces which are unaltered from the manufacturer’s original design are permitted and do not require any additional padding/covering. Equipment which could cut or cause an opponent to have an abrasion is also always illegal and, therefore, is prohibited."

This is last year's: "Knee and ankle braces are permitted, but all exposed hinges must be covered. Equipment which could cut or cause an opponent to have an abrasion is also always illegal and, therefore, is prohibited".

Thanks for the comparison.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Your local policy doesn't follow proper NFHS procedures. See:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

2006-07 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS-SITUATION 7
After playing for nearly 3 minutes, A1 is discovered in the game wearing (a) a sweatband above the elbow, or (b) a headband around the neck.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is instructed to remove the illegal item, make it legal or leave the game; he/she may not participate until compliance with the rule. (3-5-3c, 3-5-4)

It's probably quicker to get a player to remove something than having to explain the situation to the coach and get a sub in.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jerseys not tucked in, etc, are a different animal, rules-wise. They are legal uniforms not being worn properly and are covered under rule 3-3-5. By rule, the player is supposed to leave the game. However, the most common procedure followed according to the many past threads that we've had on this is to refuse entry to a player without their shirt tucked in, but for players already in the game just tell 'em to re-tuck the jersey. You only send them out if they refuse to re-tuck 'em or they're continually un-tucking 'em. The rationale was the same cite I gave above, using the language "make it legal or leave the game". You can make sweatbands/jerseys/pants not being worn properly legal, but you can't make jewelry, unsafe equipment, etc. legal.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See post #54 for my thoughts on it. Your state interpreter might be the only person able to give you a definitive ruling. Whatever your association decides though is fine imo as long as all of your officials are enforcing the situation uniformly. The players and coaches in your area have to know what to expect.

Thanks, JR. You have elaborated on the point that I was making to grune.
I agree with all that you have written in the above posts.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I was not being snooty. I was expressing my exasperation at having to inform you of a very simple and well-known ruling. Well, that's for any basketball official. Of course, you are not an official, so you don't know it.

3.5.6 SITUATION A: Substitute A6 is beckoned and enters the court to replace
A1. A6 is wearing: (a) compression shorts below the game pants which extend
below the knees; (b) cut-off jeans extending below the game pants; or (c) jewelry.
RULING: The items in (a), (b) and (c) are illegal and A6 will not be allowed to
participate while wearing the items. No penalty is involved. A6 simply cannot
participate until the illegal items are removed. (3-5-7)

Can we now move past what everyone else already knows and focus our time on discussing a real procedural question on this subject without any further distraction from you?

BTW that's me being snooty.

Has it not perhaps been considered that I have not read any of the situations or just read the rules book?

For items a & b in the situation, wouldn't the player have to be escorted to the locker room by a coach or other designated personnel to remove said illegal items? (Something I've never seen put into effect)

After further investigation, I can see where a team will not be penalized for the stupidity of one player.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Has it not perhaps been considered that I have not read any of the situations or just read the rules book?

Well, that would be your problem. It is a pretty basic assumption that people discussion the rules and rulings will have at least done so.

If you have not read them, you should.

Originally Posted by chseagle

For items a & b in the situation, wouldn't the player have to be escorted to the locker room by a coach or other designated personnel to remove said illegal items? (Something I've never seen put into effect)

Technically, No. It may be possible to either remove or make legal the offending item without removing the pants or shorts. The long compression shorts could simply be pushed/rolled up or cut off.

[Terrance "TJ"]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes. Enforced if / when seen. I don't / won't go looking for items hidden in the mouth or under the uniform, even if the scorekeeper insists that someone is wearing jewelry.

If that does happen, I guarantee you (assuming we're dealing with a girls game, jewelry/piercings isn't that much if an issue with guys from my experience) that the first time she takes a hard bump/knee/contact (or biting down on a tongue stud) to an area with a piercing she will be thinking twice before wearing it out on the floor (halftime or next game) again.

I would hope that a player getting into the game of basketball realizes there is contact of varying degree and in knowing that would knowingly remove _any_ piercing as to avoid any type of injury sustained from wearing it during a game.

Just my two cents.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Terrance "TJ"

I would hope that a player getting into the game of basketball realizes there is contact of varying degree

Hope springs eternal!!

Alas, many young people simply don't think about such things ahead of time. Welcome to the forum, TJ. Hope you keep checking in throughout the season.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Terrance "TJ"

I would hope that a player getting into the game of basketball realizes there is contact of varying degree and in knowing that would knowingly remove _any_ piercing as to avoid any type of injury sustained from wearing it during a game.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Hope springs eternal!!

C'mon TJ - if the players take out their jewelry they won't look as . Isn't THAT, what's most important to some of these players?

and, concur - welcome to the forum!

[Terrance "TJ"]

Originally Posted by grunewar

C'mon TJ - if the players take out their jewelry they won't look as . Isn't THAT, what's most important to some of these players?

and, concur - welcome to the forum!

Thats when they should opt for the other position during a game....cheerleader. I hear there aren't jewelry restrictions there!

Thanks Scrapper and grune, being a young official, I hope to use of much information as possible when I can get it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Nope. Local policy as taught to me during evaluations.

It was said to me for example, you have a player who you discover has one of those cloth wrist bands tied on or a tight necklace that you couldn't see because of his warm-ups. Are you going to delay the game as he tries to take it off? Just tell the coach you need another player and lets keep the game going. And that's how I do it.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Your local policy doesn't follow proper NFHS procedures. See:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

2006-07 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS-SITUATION 7
After playing for nearly 3 minutes, A1 is discovered in the game wearing (a) a sweatband above the elbow, or (b) a headband around the neck.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is instructed to remove the illegal item, make it legal or leave the game; he/she may not participate until compliance with the rule. (3-5-3c, 3-5-4)

It's probably quicker to get a player to remove something than having to explain the situation to the coach and get a sub in.

And now we have a brand new interp from this year saying the same thing as the one from 2006-07 and making it clear that the local policy of grune's area in NOT how the NFHS wants this handled.

2010-2011 NFHS Basketball Interp:

SITUATION 2: A1 is discovered wearing an illegal headband during a live ball. RULING: Illegal player equipment shall not be worn and, if discovered, it must be removed immediately. If it cannot be removed immediately, the player is directed to leave the game. COMMENT: There is no provision to permit a player directed to leave the game to remain in the game by assessing a technical foul or granting a time-out. (3-3-4; 3-3-5)