3-5-2c discussion

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Hey, grune, got a rules citation to back up the procedure that you use?

After rereading that same post quoted, I was asking myself the same question.

Since jewelry (except MedAlert & Religious) is prohibited, shouldn't that be a technical against that player?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

After rereading that same post quoted, I was asking myself the same question.

From your second sentence, we are NOT asking the same question.

Originally Posted by chseagle

Since jewelry (except MedAlert & Religious) is prohibited, shouldn't that be a technical against that player?

No, it is NOT a technical foul of any kind. Please don't muddy the waters with that. I'm asking grune a legit question about his method for handling a player wearing an illegal item during the game. Please allow him to respond and answer it.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

From your second sentence, we are NOT asking the same question.


No, it is NOT a technical foul of any kind. Please don't muddy the waters with that. I'm asking grune a legit question about his method for handling a player wearing an illegal item during the game. Please allow him to respond and answer it.

There is no need to get snooty when I am asking a valid question. Since jewelry is prohibited (not allowed, illegal, not part of uniform), some may think that it should be a technical foul. I was asking for clarification.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

There is no need to get snooty when I am asking a valid question. Since jewelry is prohibited (not allowed, illegal, not part of uniform), some may think that it should be a technical foul. I was asking for clarification.

I was not being snooty. I was expressing my exasperation at having to inform you of a very simple and well-known ruling. Well, that's for any basketball official. Of course, you are not an official, so you don't know it.

3.5.6 SITUATION A: Substitute A6 is beckoned and enters the court to replace
A1. A6 is wearing: (a) compression shorts below the game pants which extend
below the knees; (b) cut-off jeans extending below the game pants; or (c) jewelry.
RULING: The items in (a), (b) and (c) are illegal and A6 will not be allowed to
participate while wearing the items. No penalty is involved. A6 simply cannot
participate until the illegal items are removed. (3-5-7)

Can we now move past what everyone else already knows and focus our time on discussing a real procedural question on this subject without any further distraction from you?

BTW that's me being snooty.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Hey, grune, got a rules citation to back up the procedure that you use?

Nope. Local policy as taught to me during evaluations.

It was said to me for example, you have a player who you discover has one of those cloth wrist bands tied on or a tight necklace that you couldn't see because of his warm-ups. Are you going to delay the game as he tries to take it off? Just tell the coach you need another player and lets keep the game going. And that's how I do it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Nope. Local policy as taught to me during evaluations.

It was said to me for example, you have a player who you discover has one of those cloth wrist bands tied on or a tight necklace that you couldn't see because of his warm-ups. Are you going to delay the game as he tries to take it off? Just tell the coach you need another player and lets keep the game going. And that's how I do it.

Your local policy doesn't follow proper NFHS procedures. See:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

2006-07 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS-SITUATION 7
After playing for nearly 3 minutes, A1 is discovered in the game wearing (a) a sweatband above the elbow, or (b) a headband around the neck.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is instructed to remove the illegal item, make it legal or leave the game; he/she may not participate until compliance with the rule. (3-5-3c, 3-5-4)

It's probably quicker to get a player to remove something than having to explain the situation to the coach and get a sub in.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2006-07 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS-SITUATION 7
After playing for nearly 3 minutes, A1 is discovered in the game wearing (a) a sweatband above the elbow, or (b) a headband around the neck.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is instructed to remove the illegal item, make it legal or leave the game; he/she may not participate until compliance with the rule. (3-5-3c, 3-5-4)

It's probably quicker to get a player to remove something than having to explain the situation to the coach and get a sub in.

In the two particular situations I mentioned, or even an earring in some cases, I might opine that it oft takes a long time to remove those items, is a prolonged interruption of the game and may be prudent make the player "leave the game" as in the interpretation. In the case of a hair restraint device or wrist band that is easily removed, I concur.

I will ask for clarification at my next games/evals Thurs night. Thanks.

[Judtech]

We have this as a policy as well. It dovetails (no pun intended) with the similar policy for having jersey tucked in. We will refuse entry if it is not tucked in when they are at the table and we will send them off to tuck it in if it keeps coming untucked during the game. They do get warnings from us but we have limits.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

We have this as a policy as well. It dovetails (no pun intended) with the similar policy for having jersey tucked in. We will refuse entry if it is not tucked in when they are at the table and we will send them off to tuck it in if it keeps coming untucked during the game. They do get warnings from us but we have limits.

Jerseys not tucked in, etc, are a different animal, rules-wise. They are legal uniforms not being worn properly and are covered under rule 3-3-5. By rule, the player is supposed to leave the game. However, the most common procedure followed according to the many past threads that we've had on this is to refuse entry to a player without their shirt tucked in, but for players already in the game just tell 'em to re-tuck the jersey. You only send them out if they refuse to re-tuck 'em or they're continually un-tucking 'em. The rationale was the same cite I gave above, using the language "make it legal or leave the game". You can make sweatbands/jerseys/pants not being worn properly legal, but you can't make jewelry, unsafe equipment, etc. legal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I will ask for clarification at my next games/evals Thurs night.

See post #54 for my thoughts on it. Your state interpreter might be the only person able to give you a definitive ruling. Whatever your association decides though is fine imo as long as all of your officials are enforcing the situation uniformly. The players and coaches in your area have to know what to expect.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See post #54 for my thoughts on it. Your state interpreter might be the only person able to give you a definitive ruling. Whatever your association decides though is fine imo as long as all of your officials are enforcing the situation uniformly. The players and coaches in your area have to know what to expect.

Understand and agreed.

This happens seldom at the V level, but at sub-V it happens more. Hence, when I ask the coaches, "Are your players properly equipped and ready to play?" I usually get a "yes" or "I hope so" or "possibly." (hahaha - NOT) Then, when we "consistently" enforce the rule, they know we are vigilant and not messing around.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

By rule, the player is supposed to leave the game.

Doesn't this situation become difficult when the offending player is about to be awarded a free throw? Didn't we have a discussion about that specific situation a few years ago?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Doesn't this situation become difficult when the offending player is about to be awarded a free throw? Didn't we have a discussion about that specific situation a few years ago?

Found it:

*3.3.5 SITUATION A: B1 fouls A1. Just before A1 goes to the line for a one and
one, the official observes: (a) A1 pull the shirt out of his/her pants; or (b) A1’s
pants being worn below the hips. RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 will be directed
to put the shirt in the pants or pull up the pants, and must leave the game
immediately following his/her last free throw(s). The lane is cleared for the free
throw and Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in, whether or not the last free
throw is successful. COMMENT: A charged time-out by Team A does not alter the
requirement for A1 to leave the game.

The asterisk indicates a recent change. What changed?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Found it:

*3.3.5 SITUATION A: B1 fouls A1. Just before A1 goes to the line for a one and
one, the official observes: (a) A1 pull the shirt out of his/her pants; or (b) A1’s
pants being worn below the hips. RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 will be directed
to put the shirt in the pants or pull up the pants, and must leave the game
immediately following his/her last free throw(s). The lane is cleared for the free
throw and Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in, whether or not the last free
throw is successful. COMMENT: A charged time-out by Team A does not alter the
requirement for A1 to leave the game.

The asterisk indicates a recent change. What changed?

The "COMMENT" highlighted in red was added to the case play. The rest of it hasn't changed since it was put in 2-3 years ago.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The "COMMENT" highlighted in red was added to the case play. The rest of it hasn't changed since it was put in 2-3 years ago.

Muchas gracias.