Please Help ...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As for dunking pre-game.....
1) I disagree completely with JAR about "T"ing up someone in uniform if that person is not a member of that team's bench personnel. I know of no rule that will allow you to assess a technical foul to someone who isn't a member of a team's bench personnel.

If he is in uniform and sitting with or warming up with the team, he is bench personnel.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is in uniform and sitting with or warming up with the team, he is bench personnel.

Yup, but that doesn't make him a player or a team member by rule. And the strict language of rule 10-3-3 applies ONLY to players and team members. NFHS rule 4-34-4 says "A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player. You are eligible to become a player when your name is added to the team member list. If the head coach doesn't put someone's name on the team member list, that someone is NOT eligible to become a player, even though that someone may be bench personnel in uniform sitting on the bench.

There is nothing in the rules that I know of that states that a coach can't have bench personnel other than his players or team members dressed in uniforms and sitting on the bench if the names of those bench personnel are NOT put on the team member list. And there is also nothing in the rules that I know of that won't allow bench personnel to warmup with their team. If you can find a citation that makes any of that illegal, please let me know.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the head coach doesn't put someone's name on the team member list, that someone is NOT eligible to become a player, even though that someone may be bench personnel in uniform sitting on the bench.

Define not eligible. A name is accidentally left off the list. The person in question enters the game, then has his name added, at the expense of a technical foul. He is certainly now eligible. He became a player when he entered the court. Was he ever "not eligible?"

Furthermore, consider the intent and purpose of the rule. Dunking is not allowed in the warmups. Following your logic, Lebron James could go back to his old high school, suit up with the team, and put on a dunking exhibition during the warmups every night to inspire the players and their fans. Do you think this is the intent of this rule? I don't.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1) Define not eligible. A name is accidentally left off the list. The person in question enters the game, then has his name added, at the expense of a technical foul. He is certainly now eligible. He became a player when he entered the court. Was he ever "not eligible?"

2) Furthermore, consider the intent and purpose of the rule. Dunking is not allowed in the warmups. Following your logic, Lebron James could go back to his old high school, suit up with the team, and put on a dunking exhibition during the warmups every night to inspire the players and their fans. Do you think this is the intent of this rule? I don't.

1) Um, yes, if that player's name was not on the team member list, then he is not eligible until his name is put on that list.I agree that someone from bench personnel can become eligible to be a team member at the expense of a technical foul. But until they do become eligible by being placed on the team member list, they are NOT a team member by rule.

2) I believe that I've already stated using my logic that this hypothetical situation can be handled by using the language of rule 10-4-1. That rule covers the actions of all bench personnel and also gives you the same result as the application of rule 10-3-3( direct "T" to BronBron and indirect "T" to his head coach). That sureasheck does cover the intent of the rule imo.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) I believe that I've already stated using my logic that this hypothetical situation can be handled by using the language of rule 10-4-1. That rule covers the actions of all bench personnel and also gives you the same result as the application of rule 10-3-3( direct "T" to BronBron and indirect "T" to his head coach). That sureasheck does cover the intent of the rule imo.

If it gives you the same result, what are we arguing about? I thought you had said that you could not T a guy for dunking if he wasn't a team member. Is this not the case?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If it gives you the same result, what are we arguing about? I thought you had said that you could not T a guy for dunking if he wasn't a team member. Is this not the case?

Just to be accurate, in post #28 of this thread you said that if someone is in uniform and warming up with the team, you can "T" that person up if he dunks. I don't agree with that at all. Whether you can "T" that person up depends on whether that person is bench personnel or not. If that person is not bench personnel, just have that person removed from the court. The only way that you could T this person up is by labelling him a team follower and using R2-8-1. That rule should only be used under extreme circumstances. If the person is bench personnel, find out whether that person is also a team member. If he is a team member, you can assess a "T" under R10-3-3 if they dunk. If he is not a team member, assess a "T" under R10-4-1 if they dunk.

That's the distinctions by rule that I've been trying to point out.

And also please note that I'm also still waiting for someone...anyone.... to find something....anything....under NFHS rules that says that the officials can actually do or are supposed to do something....anything... if their pre-game count of people warming up doesn't match the number of people listed as team members in the score book.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And also please note that I'm also still waiting for someone...anyone.... to find something....anything....under NFHS rules that says that the officials can actually do or are supposed to do something....anything... if their pre-game count of people warming up doesn't match the number of people listed as team members in the score book.

I think BillyMac has already conceded that, as you know, there is no RULE prescribing what action should be taken if the number of team members warming up does not match the number of names in the scorebook. However, any official worth a 5th-grade-game-paycheck will use just a little "preventative officiating" and mention to the coach that there aren't enough names in the book. That way, we don't have to resort to the RULE about what to do when a name is added after the 10-minute mark; which, again, you already know.