Please Help ...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I cannot find anything in 10-4 (Bench Personnel) that prohibits bench personnel from dunking a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended.

10-3-3: This item applies to all team members.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If these guys are in uniform, and they report to the table during the game, what are you gonna do? Beckon them in, no matter who they are.

This means they are eligible to become players.

This means if they dunk during the warmup, it is a technical foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-3-3: This item applies to all team members. 4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player. If these guys are in uniform, and they report to the table during the game, what are you gonna do? Beckon them in, no matter who they are. This means they are eligible to become players. This means if they dunk during the warmup, it is a technical foul.

I was referring to Jurassic Referee's question from several posts ago, where he asked: "Can a member of bench personnel other than a team member participate in the pre-game warmup?", and, "What is the penalty if a bench member other than a team member dunks the ball in the pre-game warmup?".

To stay with my example, what happens if the team chaplain dunks during pregame warmups? From my most recent post before this, I believe that the dunking is not the illegal act. However, it is illegal for the team chaplain to enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player, so there's our technical foul, which would also prevent him from warming up with the team.

I'm hoping that someone can come up with a better interpretation, and citation than mine. There has to be some other rule reference that prevents nonunifomed bench personnel from getting in the layup line, or getting in the layup line and dunking.

And again, how about the kid from the freshman team, who hangs around, in uniform, after his late afternoon game, watches the junior varsity game from the stands, and after the junior varsity game, decides to show off and joins the layup line and jams one down during the varsity warmups? In the book? No. In uniform? Yes. Eligible to play? Probably. Technical foul? Probably. Again, I'm hoping that someone can come up with a better interpretation, and citation than mine.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes you did. And I didn't know the answer, which is why I ended the last sentence in the post, "Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, ... may not get involved in pregame warmups?" with a question mark.

Is there such a rule that tells us who may warmup with the team, and who may not? What if the team chaplain (bench personnel) dunks during pregame warmups?

Jurassic Referee: Do you have an interpretation on this, or are you playing "devil's advocate? I know that you must, at least, have an opinion.

There is no rule that I know of that states who can or can't warmup. I don't think that you have any rules justification to stop bench personnel such as team trainers/statisticians from warming up with team members as long as they were legally dressed. The rules just don't cover it. I do know that there is no valid reason by rule for the R to check or do anything about the number of players warming up pre-game if that number differs with the number of players in the book. The old thread that Scrappy posted kinda alluded to that. That's why I took exception with you for including that coda in your Administrative Infraction essay.

As for dunking pre-game.....
1) I disagree completely with JAR about "T"ing up someone in uniform if that person is not a member of that team's bench personnel. I know of no rule that will allow you to assess a technical foul to someone who isn't a member of a team's bench personnel. The only rule even close imo is rule 2-8-1 which covers unsporting conduct by a team follower, and I'd be very, very careful about issuing a "T" using that rule. Just have that person removed from the court.
2) The rules related to pre-game dunking refer to players and team members only. They do not relate to other members of a team's bench personnel afaik. However, there is nowayinhell you should ever allow those bench personnel members to dunk pre-game. I doubt very much that was the purpose and intent of the no pre-game dunking rule. In that particular case, you can use the language of rule 10-4-1 which says bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul and also says that "this includes but is not limited to...". Iow you can call a "T" if you feel that an act is unsporting...and someone from bench personnel dunking pre-game sureasheck is committing an unsporting act imo. Note that the penalty is exactly the same as the penalty for a player/team member dunking pre-game. It's a direct "T" to the offender and an indirect "T" to the head coach.

Rules rulz! The odds are a million to 1 that you'd ever actually see in a real game what we're discussing. If by some stoopid happenchance it actually did occur though, I would just use what rules I do have and then post-game try to get a definitive ruling from my state governing body.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

However, it is illegal for the team chaplain to enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player, so there's our technical foul, which would also prevent him from warming up with the team.

Are you kidding? Are you really saying that a team chaplain or any other member of bench personnel outside of players and team members can't go out on the floor during the pre-game warmup? A trainer couldn't come out on the court to look at a player without getting official permission first?

Don't think so, Billy. If that logic was true, you'd have to give out technical fouls to all bench personnel who came out onto the court during a timeout. Or left the bench area at half time. And we know that a head coach can legally take his team out on the court during a full timeout and into the locker room at half time.

You're reading something into the rule that was never intended.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As for dunking pre-game.....
1) I disagree completely with JAR about "T"ing up someone in uniform if that person is not a member of that team's bench personnel. I know of no rule that will allow you to assess a technical foul to someone who isn't a member of a team's bench personnel.

If he is in uniform and sitting with or warming up with the team, he is bench personnel.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-3-3: This item applies to all team members.

I'm not so sure, jar. Bear in mind that 10-3 clearly says, "A player shall not..."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I'm not so sure, jar. Bear in mind that 10-3 clearly says, "A player shall not..."

Keep reading.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I'm not so sure, jar. Bear in mind that 10-3 clearly says, "A player shall not..."

And what is the definition of "player"? According to 4-34-1, a player is one of the 5 team members who are legally on the court at the same time. Since this is before the game, how do you tell which 5 are the "players"? Since this is an intermission, rather than the game itself, you can then use 4-34-2, which states, "During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel."

That is the reason why there has been this discussion about the difference between "player", "team member" and "bench personnel", because of the definitions of the terms used.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is in uniform and sitting with or warming up with the team, he is bench personnel.

Yup, but that doesn't make him a player or a team member by rule. And the strict language of rule 10-3-3 applies ONLY to players and team members. NFHS rule 4-34-4 says "A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player. You are eligible to become a player when your name is added to the team member list. If the head coach doesn't put someone's name on the team member list, that someone is NOT eligible to become a player, even though that someone may be bench personnel in uniform sitting on the bench.

There is nothing in the rules that I know of that states that a coach can't have bench personnel other than his players or team members dressed in uniforms and sitting on the bench if the names of those bench personnel are NOT put on the team member list. And there is also nothing in the rules that I know of that won't allow bench personnel to warmup with their team. If you can find a citation that makes any of that illegal, please let me know.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Keep reading.

"...all team members." Fair enough. So, are you saying you can apply a player technical foul to a coach, manager, or other bench personnel not intended to be players?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I'm not so sure, jar. Bear in mind that 10-3 clearly says, "A player shall not..."

And rule 10-3-3 also states that that it applies not only to players but to all team members. What that rule doesn't state anywhere is that it also applies to any bench personnel who are neither players nor team members.

And here's a l'il sumthin' for you and JAR to ponder.......
Rule 10-3-3 has an EXCEPTION that says that a player may grasp the basket to prevent injury. Does that mean that a team member will get a "T" if he grasps the basket in warmup to prevent injury?

Heeheeheehee......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Since this is before the game, how do you tell which 5 are the "players"? Since this is an intermission, rather than the game itself, you can then use 4-34-2, which states, "During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel."

Disagree. NFHS rule 5-5-1 defines the intermissions as occurring between the first, second and third quarters. And rule 10-3-4 refers to the period prior to the game and the period during any intermission as being separate periods entirely.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. NFHS rule 5-5-1 defines the intermissions as occurring between the first, second and third quarters. And rule 10-3-4 refers to the period prior to the game and the period during any intermission as being separate periods entirely.

Yea, you're right - I was typing in a hurry. I was simply trying to point out the differences between the terms - players, team members and bench personnel. So, forget I was ever here.

Carry on.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 10-3-3 has an EXCEPTION that says that a player may grasp the basket to prevent injury. Does that mean that a team member will get a "T" if he grasps the basket in warmup to prevent injury?

OK, I'll play. I say that depends.

Sitch 1: A-1 is without the ball near the basket in pregame. A-2 comes flying toward him. While A-1 jumps, he graps the ring while A-2 sails beneath him. Legal, as A-1 was avoiding injury.

Sitch 2: A-1 goes up the pregame dunk. As A-1 dunks, A-2 jumps to stop him. A-1 slams the ball home, then graps the ring to avoid contact with A-2. Technical foul for the pregame dunk.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the head coach doesn't put someone's name on the team member list, that someone is NOT eligible to become a player, even though that someone may be bench personnel in uniform sitting on the bench.

Define not eligible. A name is accidentally left off the list. The person in question enters the game, then has his name added, at the expense of a technical foul. He is certainly now eligible. He became a player when he entered the court. Was he ever "not eligible?"

Furthermore, consider the intent and purpose of the rule. Dunking is not allowed in the warmups. Following your logic, Lebron James could go back to his old high school, suit up with the team, and put on a dunking exhibition during the warmups every night to inspire the players and their fans. Do you think this is the intent of this rule? I don't.