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[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

ADMINISTRATIVE INFRACTION TECHNICAL FOUL PENALTIES

The referee reviews the scorebook, looking for duplicate numbers, illegal numbers, and that the number of players on each roster coincides with the number of players warming up.

And if the number of players DOESN'T coincide, what then is the R supposed to do? And why?

Which also brings up the points......
1) Can a member of bench personnel other than a team member participate in the pre-game warmup?
2) What is the penalty if a bench member other than a team member dunks the ball in the pre-game warmup?

Rules refences with the answers would be greatly appreciated.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if the number of players doesn't coincide, what then is the R supposed to do? And why?

Here in our little corner of Connecticut, we've been taught, for at least the past thirty years, to do a little preventive officiating while checking the book before the game. We are encouraged to check the book no later than twelve minutes before the scheduled starting time to rectify any errors, or discrepancies, before they turn into infractions that have to be penalized after the ten minute mark.

We have been encouraged to look for illegal numbers, and identical numbers, before the ten minute mark so that they can be addressed, at this point, without penalty. We have also been encouraged to check that there are the same number of players in the book, or more, than there are players warming up. If there are more players in the book than there are players warming up, it's no big deal and we move on, maybe a player is sick, or injured. On the other hand, if there are fewer players in the book than there are players warming up, then we address this issue with the scorekeeper. The usual response is, "Oh yeah. Johnny Smith got moved up to the varsity for tonight's game. I forgot. Thanks.". Again, this is all done before the ten minute mark to avoid having to penalize "administrative" infractions.

Even though we try to find errors, and discrepancies, before the ten minute mark, they still happen, and ultimately, it's the coach's responsibility to make sure that the scorebook, roster, uniform numbers, etc., are correct. We only have a few minutes to spend with the table crew before the game, and the players, usually wearing warmup tops over their uniform jerseys, are difficult to observe for illegal uniforms, numbers, and equipment. Sometimes we only get to see what they are actually wearing during the National Anthem and pregame player introductions. We still try to do the best we can to avoid administrative infraction penalties, but when they happen, and if you officiate long enough, they will, we must be prepared to deal with them, and penalize them, in the proper manner, within the proper time frame.

In any case, that's the way we've been doing things around here for a long, long, time. Is there a rules reference, or a manual reference, that covers these procedures? Probably not. Are we right, and is everybody else, who doesn't use these preventative procedures, wrong? No. When in Rome, or in this case, when in my little corner of IAABO Connecticut ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Can a member of bench personnel other than a team member participate in the pre-game warmup? 2) What is the penalty if a bench member other than a team member dunks the ball in the pre-game warmup? Rules references with the answers would be greatly appreciated.

Jurassic Referee: Great questions. I've often wondered about these situations. I do remember an interpretation a few years ago that stated that team members warming up must be legally equipped, thus, no earrings, no illegal headbands, etc.

10-3-3 tells us that a player shall not: Grasp either basket during the time of the officials’ jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item applies to all team members.

But is there a rule that tells us that team members, other than players, and substitutes, for example, the team manager, team mascot, team trainer, team coach, team statistician, team chaplain, injured player in street clothes, injured player in uniform (whose name is in the book but won't play), etc., may not get involved in pregame warmups? I don't know.

This situation should probably have it's own thread. Let the games begin.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10-3-3 tells us that a player shall not: Grasp either basket during the time of the officials’ jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item applies to all team members.

But is there a rule that tells us that team members, other than players, and substitutes, for example, the team manager, team mascot, team trainer, team coach, team statistician, team chaplain, injured player in street clothes, injured player in uniform (whose name is in the book but won't play), etc., may not get involved in pregame warmups? I don't know.

Got to know your definitions, Billy. Bench personnel such as coaches, trainers, etc. are NOT team members, by rule.

NFHS rule 4-34.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

On the other hand, if there are fewer players in the book than there are players warming up, then we address this issue with the scorekeeper.

What issue?

What rule is being broken that you have to address?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What issue?

What rule is being broken that you have to address?

I was very late to the following discussion, but BillyMac's question (more players warming up than are in the book) reminded of this thread, which addressed the opposite problem (more players in the book than warming up):

Submitting the roster before the game

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I was very late to the following discussion, but BillyMac's question (more players warming up than are in the book) reminded of this thread, which addressed the opposite problem (more players in the book than warming up):

Submitting the roster before the game

It reminded me of that thread also, as did Billy's essay on administrative infractions.

Which is kinda why I asked the questions above that haven't been answered yet.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Got to know your definitions, Billy. Bench personnel such as coaches, trainers, etc. are NOT team members, by rule.

PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 1 A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.
ART. 3 A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.
ART. 4 A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, for example, the team manager, team mascot, team trainer, team coach, team statistician, team chaplain, injured player in street clothes, injured player in uniform (whose name is in the book but won't play), etc., may not get involved in pregame warmups?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, for example, the team manager, team mascot, team trainer, team coach, team statistician, team chaplain, injured player in street clothes, injured player in uniform (whose name is in the book but won't play), etc., may not get involved in pregame warmups?

Didn't I just ask you that?

And if one of 'em dunks, is there a rule prohibiting that also?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What rule is being broken that you have to address?

Up until the ten minute mark, no rule is being broken. In fact, if a player warming up, who is not in the book, never becomes one of the five players in the game, then no rule has been broken. If such player gets in, and out, of the game without his name and number being added to the book, then again, no rule has been broken. If however that player enters the game, and the scorekeeper adds his name and number into a book, then a technical foul must be charged while that team member is a player in the game.

Sometimes this can be avoided with some pregame preventative officiating:
Referee: "Hey scorekeeper. Why are thirteen kids warming up? There are only twelve in the book."
Scorekeeper: "I didn't know that Bobby Jones had been cleared to play by the trainer. He's been injured for two weeks. Thanks for noticing that.".
I probably go through this scenario, or something nearly like it, about two or three times a season.

Again, that's the way we do it around here. Not in the rulebook. Probably not in the manual. Nobody's doing anything wrong if they don't do it. It's just the way we've been doing it around here for, at least, the last thirty years.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Didn't I just ask you that? And if one of 'em dunks, is there a rule prohibiting that also?

Yes you did. And I didn't know the answer, which is why I ended the last sentence in the post, "Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, ... may not get involved in pregame warmups?" with a question mark.

Is there such a rule that tells us who may warmup with the team, and who may not? What if the team chaplain (bench personnel) dunks during pregame warmups?

Jurassic Referee: Do you have an interpretation on this, or are you playing "devil's advocate? I know that you must, at least, have an opinion.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

More players in the book than warming up: Submitting the roster before the game

Scrapper1: You had to resurrect this situation. I got that question wrong on the IAABO Refresher Exam, and I'm still pissed about it. I remember it like it was yesterday.

When I was coaching middle school basketball, all fourteen players were listed, in numerical order, in the scorebook for all games, injured, ill, absent, suspension, etc. I would write in the roster several games in advance. Just wanted to be sure that we never got a technical foul for adding name and number to the book.

[just another ref]

We have had a couple of threads on the dunk thing, and some of us (I) say, if he is in uniform and warming up with the team, if he dunks it is a technical foul, no matter who he is.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is in uniform and warming up with the team, if he dunks it is a technical foul, no matter who he is.

Junior varsity player, in uniform, identical to the varsity uniforms, decides to join in the varsity layup line and dunks the ball. His name and number are not listed in the scorebook for the varsity game.

Is he a player? No. Is he a team member? Well, is he eligible to become a player? His name and number are not on the roster in the scorebook, but we all know that he can have his name added to the roster and scorebook if he becomes a player at the expense of a technical foul. Of course, anyone in the gym, in uniform, from the freshman team on up, could get into the game at the expense of a technical foul. Does that mean that they're all eligible to become players, and, therefore, team members, who can be called for technical foul if they dunk pregame?

Just asking. As with bench personnel (team chaplain) dunking, or for that matter, just warming up, I've got questions, and no answers.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If one of 'em dunks, is there a rule prohibiting that also?

I still don't know for sure, but I'll take a stab at it.

I cannot find anything in 10-4 (Bench Personnel) that prohibits bench personnel, who are not substitutes, from dunking a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended.

However, and I'm grasping at straws here, according to 10-4-2, bench personnel (team chaplain) shall not: Enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player.

It's a stretch, but if the team chaplain (bench personnel), comes out during warmups and dunks, the official can't charge him with a technical foul for dunking, but can charge him with a technical foul for entering the court. Of course if you believe this interpretation, then you can also use this citation to prevent the team chaplain (bench personnel), from warming up with the team.

That's the best I can come up with. I hope that someone comes up with a better answer, with some pertinent citations.