Please Help ...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I was simply trying to point out the differences between the terms - players, team members and bench personnel.

And that's all that I'm trying to do also. Methinks we're both coming at this from the same angle.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1) Define not eligible. A name is accidentally left off the list. The person in question enters the game, then has his name added, at the expense of a technical foul. He is certainly now eligible. He became a player when he entered the court. Was he ever "not eligible?"

2) Furthermore, consider the intent and purpose of the rule. Dunking is not allowed in the warmups. Following your logic, Lebron James could go back to his old high school, suit up with the team, and put on a dunking exhibition during the warmups every night to inspire the players and their fans. Do you think this is the intent of this rule? I don't.

1) Um, yes, if that player's name was not on the team member list, then he is not eligible until his name is put on that list.I agree that someone from bench personnel can become eligible to be a team member at the expense of a technical foul. But until they do become eligible by being placed on the team member list, they are NOT a team member by rule.

2) I believe that I've already stated using my logic that this hypothetical situation can be handled by using the language of rule 10-4-1. That rule covers the actions of all bench personnel and also gives you the same result as the application of rule 10-3-3( direct "T" to BronBron and indirect "T" to his head coach). That sureasheck does cover the intent of the rule imo.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're reading something into the rule that was never intended.

I told you that I was grasping at straws.

I had a game this past season, a Catholic school, girls, varsity game. Sitting on the end of the team bench was a nun, dressed in full habit. I would have loved to have seen her get in the layup line and slam one down.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I do know that there is no valid reason by rule for the R to check or do anything about the number of players warming up pre-game if that number differs with the number of players in the book.

By rule, you are 100% correct.

Again, that's just the way we do it around here. Not in the rulebook. Probably not in the manual. Nobody's doing anything wrong if they don't do it. It's just the way we've been doing it here in our little corner of Connecticut for, at least, the last thirty years.

Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

[BillyMac]

NFHS 2009-11 Basketball Officials Manual
Part 2 Game Procedures – Crew Of Two (page 15)
2.1 Pregame
A. Referee’s Duties:
7. Count the number of visiting team squad members.
8. Obtain the same information from umpire regarding the home team.
9. Verify the number of team members ... in the scorebook for each team.
B. Umpire Duties:
1. Count the number of home team squad members.

I know that the NFHS doesn't suggest to us what to do if the counts don't match up, but the NFHS must want us to do all this counting for some reason? Why are we counting? I think I know, but it's only for my little corner of Connecticut. Why is the rest of the country counting? Ask the NFHS. They must know the reason.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I'm not so sure, jar. Bear in mind that 10-3 clearly says, "A player shall not..."

Hopefully they don't change that to "Playa....

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By rule, you are 100% correct.


Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

I would hope that everyone does that. If you are in a 3 person crew your U1 and U2 should each be assigned a team to count players and make sure they are in "dress code". In a two person crew....need I explain. Then when the R goes to the table they should match the number they were given by their partners and what is in the book. Maybe even double check it yourself. That way if there are discrepancies, they can be sorted out before it gets REALLY interesting!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 2009-11 Basketball Officials Manual
Part 2 Game Procedures – Crew Of Two (page 15)
2.1 Pregame
A. Referee’s Duties:
7. Count the number of visiting team squad members.
8. Obtain the same information from umpire regarding the home team.
9. Verify the number of team members ... in the scorebook for each team.
B. Umpire Duties:
1. Count the number of home team squad members.

I know that the NFHS doesn't suggest to us what to do if the counts don't match up, but the NFHS must want to so all this counting for some reason? Why are we counting? I think I know, but it's only for my little corner of Connecticut. Why is the rest of the country counting? Ask the NFHS. They must know the reason.

I'm well aware of what the Manual says, Billy. I have no idea what the definition of a "squad member" is by rule though. I'm guessing that it's the same as being a team member, but.... I'm just guessing. What I can't understand though is why there needs to be a count. There is nothing that I am aware of in the rules anywhere that states you can do anything with that information after you get it. Or that you are supposed to do anything if a team has more or fewer people warming up than are listed on the team member list.

You count people warming up. I don't know why. You verify the number of names listed as being team members. That's so that additional names aren't added after the 10-minute pre-game time limit specified. There's no rules prerequisite that I know of that states those numbers have to match-up though. That's my point.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) I believe that I've already stated using my logic that this hypothetical situation can be handled by using the language of rule 10-4-1. That rule covers the actions of all bench personnel and also gives you the same result as the application of rule 10-3-3( direct "T" to BronBron and indirect "T" to his head coach). That sureasheck does cover the intent of the rule imo.

If it gives you the same result, what are we arguing about? I thought you had said that you could not T a guy for dunking if he wasn't a team member. Is this not the case?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

We do in Maine, too.

I always say that the toughest part of our jobs isn't block/charge or travelling, it's counting the moving kids during warmups!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I always say that the toughest part of our jobs isn't block/charge or travelling, it's counting the moving kids during warmups!

Been there. Done that. Especially the drill, mostly used by girls teams, using two balls, where they form two lines on the endline, in line with the lane lines, and circle around the elbows to get a pass from a teammate before laying it in. It's the basketball version of three card monte.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

We do in Maine, too.

"As Maine goes, so goes the nation"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If it gives you the same result, what are we arguing about? I thought you had said that you could not T a guy for dunking if he wasn't a team member. Is this not the case?

Just to be accurate, in post #28 of this thread you said that if someone is in uniform and warming up with the team, you can "T" that person up if he dunks. I don't agree with that at all. Whether you can "T" that person up depends on whether that person is bench personnel or not. If that person is not bench personnel, just have that person removed from the court. The only way that you could T this person up is by labelling him a team follower and using R2-8-1. That rule should only be used under extreme circumstances. If the person is bench personnel, find out whether that person is also a team member. If he is a team member, you can assess a "T" under R10-3-3 if they dunk. If he is not a team member, assess a "T" under R10-4-1 if they dunk.

That's the distinctions by rule that I've been trying to point out.

And also please note that I'm also still waiting for someone...anyone.... to find something....anything....under NFHS rules that says that the officials can actually do or are supposed to do something....anything... if their pre-game count of people warming up doesn't match the number of people listed as team members in the score book.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And also please note that I'm also still waiting for someone...anyone.... to find something....anything....under NFHS rules that says that the officials can actually do or are supposed to do something....anything... if their pre-game count of people warming up doesn't match the number of people listed as team members in the score book.

I think BillyMac has already conceded that, as you know, there is no RULE prescribing what action should be taken if the number of team members warming up does not match the number of names in the scorebook. However, any official worth a 5th-grade-game-paycheck will use just a little "preventative officiating" and mention to the coach that there aren't enough names in the book. That way, we don't have to resort to the RULE about what to do when a name is added after the 10-minute mark; which, again, you already know.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I think BillyMac has already conceded that, as you know, there is no RULE prescribing what action should be taken if the number of team members warming up does not match the number of names in the scorebook. However, any official worth a 5th-grade-game-paycheck will use just a little "preventative officiating" and mention to the coach that there aren't enough names in the book. That way, we don't have to resort to the RULE about what to do when a name is added after the 10-minute mark; which, again, you already know.

That covers more people warming up than names in the book. What action should any official worth a 5th grade game paycheck take if there are fewer people warming up than there are names in the book? And why?