Things I learned at camp

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

While I have a problem with "on the floor," that's only a part of the problem. Even officials who don't use the term are too quick to wave off a shot, and that's Rich's point.

I have noticed that trend here with several of my partners. It could be the level I'm working right now also.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I have noticed that trend here with several of my partners. It could be the level I'm working right now also.

Most likely it is, I've noticed the higher level (even HS) guys are more apt to call this correctly. Around here, I get the opportunity to work with seasoned varsity officials and 2nd year officials just getting to the JV level. But I've also seen the seasoned officials make this call. While I defer to their judgment and am very slow to question them (and careful about how I do it), I have seen a few calls that I disagreed with on this issue.

And Rich, I think, works varsity almost exclusively.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Most likely it is, I've noticed the higher level (even HS) guys are more apt to call this correctly. Around here, I get the opportunity to work with seasoned varsity officials and 2nd year officials just getting to the JV level. But I've also seen the seasoned officials make this call. While I defer to their judgment and am very slow to question them (and careful about how I do it), I have seen a few calls that I disagreed with on this issue.

And Rich, I think, works varsity almost exclusively.

I do work only varsity and juco, but this is a skill (patient whistle and learning when the ball is gathered in) that should be learned much earlier in one's career. And like Snaq, I see way to many 20-to-30 years guys erroneously wiping off a shot when at the minimum it should be a shooting foul (and a basket if the ball goes in).

It's one of my real pet peeves.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by richmsn

i do work only varsity and juco, but this is a skill (patient whistle and learning when the ball is gathered in) that should be learned much earlier in one's career. And like snaq, i see way to many 20-to-30 years guys erroneously wiping off a shot when at the minimum it should be a shooting foul (and a basket if the ball goes in).

It's one of my real pet peeves.

+111111111!!!!!!!

[bainsey]

I also fully agree with the patient whistle, and I try to implement it myself, but what is it about basketball where some people expect a quicker whistle than other sports?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I also fully agree with the patient whistle, and I try to implement it myself, but what is it about basketball where some people expect a quicker whistle than other sports?

"Late whistle" complaints? I've found that "late whistle" is code for, "I know it was the right call, but I have to whine about something." I also haven't heard one in a long time, to be honest.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Late whistle" complaints? I've found that "late whistle" is code for, "I know it was the right call, but I have to whine about something." I also haven't heard one in a long time, to be honest.

There is a huge difference between a patient whistle and a late whistle. If you have a patient whistle on every play and see the play from start to FINISH and then decide if it even needs a whistle then every play will be the same. You won't jump calls or have "late" whistles.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Late whistle" complaints? .... I also haven't heard one in a long time, to be honest.

Yeah, they're not exactly frequent. I had one complaint this year that a call was "ten minutes late." I'm not too big on hyperbole when I'm trying to be accurate.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I also fully agree with the patient whistle, and I try to implement it myself, but what is it about basketball where some people expect a quicker whistle than other sports?

Some situations should have a quick whistle; other situations might need a half-count longer for assessment. There's no problem at all with a quick whistle on violations and obvious fouls. The patient whistle is usually used to determine advantage/disadvantage on contact.

You can't make up hard and fast rules on when to blow your whistle. The situation determines that, and every situation is different.

In my opinion, there's a lot of confusion as to what a patient whistle actually is.

[GoodwillRef]

I was working at a camp this weekend and we had some issues with campers calling fouls on the ground instead of giving the player 2 shots. Have a patient whistle and know when the offensive player "gathers" the ball and start their habitual motion to shoot the basketball...when in doubt give two shots...don't penalize the offense since the defense committed a foul.

Good point Rich, at the HS level we wave off way too many shots!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I was working at a camp this weekend and we had some issues with campers calling fouls on the ground instead of giving the player 2 shots. Have a patient whistle and know when the offensive player "gathers" the ball and start their habitual motion to shoot the basketball...when in doubt give two shots...don't penalize the offense since the defense committed a foul.

Good point Rich, at the HS level we wave off way too many shots!

This is a good point. Hold the whistle an extra half-second or so and it becomes a much less "controversial" call or one you have to sell. The call is the same (shots) and is just as correct, but the patient whistle makes the call easier for the coaches to understand.

[Mrcrash3]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

This is a good point. Hold the whistle an extra half-second or so and it becomes a much less "controversial" call or one you have to sell. The call is the same (shots) and is just as correct, but the patient whistle makes the call easier for the coaches to understand.

+1
I have been working on this concept for the last 2-3 seasons
This is turned into a good post with a great exchange of ideas and information. Thanx to all

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Have a patient whistle and know when the offensive player "gathers" the ball and start their habitual motion to shoot the basketball...when in doubt give two shots...don't penalize the offense since the defense committed a foul.

Imo the timing of the whistle is meaningless. What the calling official really needs to do is take the extra second to determine if the ball the ball was gathered or not at the time of the foul.

The whistle isn't the problem. The problem is the official not calling the play properly. And maybe the right idea is to get the official to think about the play for a second after he blows the whistle but before he declares whether it was a shooting foul or not. You have to drill it into their heads that when they see a foul, they also have to immediately check to see the status of the ball at the same time. If they don't do that, it doesn't matter how "patient" the whistle is anyway. They're just guessing.

JMO.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Imo the timing of the whistle is meaningless. What the calling official really needs to do is take the extra second to determine if the ball the ball was gathered or not at the time of the foul.

I don't think timing is meaningless. I think that if you get in a habit of calling plays quickly, you'll have poor timing when you need that extra half-second. Quick timing in basketball means you'll have fouls when you wish a second later that you would've passed on the call.

It's just like baseball. You develop good timing on all pitches and plays, even though you don't need it on 90% of them.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't think timing is meaningless. I think that if you get in a habit of calling plays quickly, you'll have poor timing when you need that extra half-second. Quick timing in basketball means you'll have fouls when you wish a second later that you would've passed on the call.

It's just like baseball. You develop good timing on all pitches and plays, even though you don't need it on 90% of them.

I think that you missed my point, Rich. There are some plays that you can call quickly or slowly and the timing of the whistle makes absolutely no difference at all. Examples are plays like violations and obvious fouls. Player steps on a line, travels, etc....you see it, you call it. And by obvious fouls, I mean the ones that you're going to call no matter what when you put air in your whistle. Then there are some other other plays that you have to let develop and finish before you can make a decision as to whether that play deserves a whistle at all. Those usually involve contact situations in which you have to decide whether the contact was incidental or not. The best example of that is contact while rebounding. Some contact on a rebound is a no-brainer. If the player with position got shoved all over hell or knocked down, you gotta call it imo. On another rebound though, the player with legal position might have been displaced but either that displacement didn't stop him from getting the ball or the ball didn't come his way anyway. Those you can wait on and let go as incidental contact.

That's what a patient whistle means to me. You shouldn't call some plays quickly, but that theorem doesn't apply to all plays.