Things I learned at camp

[Mrcrash3]

Long time lurker-infrequent poster. I had to share my camp experience: I had a great experience at a HS camp. I got yelled at for ball watching, and once for not calling an intentional foul. I saw the contact, but didn’t see the push in the back at the lead. I took the blame for getting straight-lined. My partner at the C bailed me out with the intentional call.
My clinician was retired NBA official Ron Olesiak. My partners and I jelled after the first half of the first game, and he recommended us for varsity games to our assignor. Wow! Ron then asked us to stay after our last game to talk advanced officiating for a few minutes. This turned into a one hour personal clinic. We covered RSBQ, continuation, block/charge, verticality, and types of contact that warrant a foul plus a great deal more. It was Fantastic!

[bainsey]

Good stuff, 909. Thanks for posting.

BTW, if someone could elaborate a bit on the whole rhythm-speed-balance-quickness concept, I'd really appreciate that.

[Hornets222003]

Originally Posted by bainsey

BTW, if someone could elaborate a bit on the whole rhythm-speed-balance-quickness concept, I'd really appreciate that.

Here's the way I was taught the concept:

If the contact (when the defender is at fault) acts to disrupt the dribblers rhythm, speed, balance, or quickness it is a foul. I'm sure you've seen plays where a dribbler goes to turn a corner and there is a bump. If you see that bump impact the rhythm that the dribbler established before the contact then you should call the foul. If you see the dribbler slow down from the contact such that the defender gains the advantage you should call the foul. If the dribbler loses balance, then it's a foul. And if a dribblers quickness is neutralized by the contact, then there is a foul.

On the other hand, if the dribbler is able to work through the contact and get to where he/she wanted to go on the floor without a sufficient disruption, then the contact can be ruled incidental and you play on.

I hope this helps.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Good stuff, 909. Thanks for posting.

BTW, if someone could elaborate a bit on the whole rhythm-speed-balance-quickness concept, I'd really appreciate that.

The concept hasn't changed in the 50+ years I've been involved...just the terminology. The NFHS has put out numerous POE's, interpretations, etc. over the years. Here's a prime example from an old POE:

HANDS OFF:
-defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler.
- no displacement of a cutter.
- the measuring of an opponent(tagging) is hand checking, is not permitted and is a FOUL.*(NFHS emphasis, not mine)
- Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of the contact, is a FOUL. *(again NFHS emphasis)
- hand checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person illegally using their hands.
- this applies to both offensive and defensive players.
- principles involved in incidental contact (Rule 4-27) apply.

It's usually accepted that a defender can put one hand on the dribbler/cutter/post player if they take it right off again without displacing that dribbler/cutter/post player. Two hands on a dribbler/cutter/post player is an automatic foul, displacement or not.

The same POE, which was was issued for about 3 years in a row, also talked about defensive contact during post play and contact during screens.


And also note that that the NBA, NCAA and NFHS have all issued recent memos about not letting dribblers get "bumped". The "bumping" has been ignored too much in their collective opinions. They all felt that too much illegal contact was being let go on dribblers under the guise of "incidental" contact.

[DLH17]

It's usually accepted that a defender can put one hand on the dribbler/cutter/post player if they take it right off again without displacing that dribbler/cutter/post player. Two hands on a dribbler/cutter/post player is an automatic foul, displacement or not.

I had a varsity boys coach go ballistic on me over the weekend when I called a foul on one of his guys for putting hand on the ballhandler's hip and keeping it there from the 3 point line all the way to the block.

He gave me (and this was a first for me) the big "PHOOEY ON YOU" - turned head and waved hand at me.

It was awesome, I must say.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by DLH17

I had a varsity boys coach go ballistic on me over the weekend when I called a foul on one of his guys for putting hand on the ballhandler's hip and keeping it there from the 3 point line all the way to the block.

He gave me (and this was a first for me) the big "PHOOEY ON YOU" - turned head and waved hand at me.

It was awesome, I must say.

If he SAID that, I certainly hope you T'd him up. He showed you up big time.

The gesture alone might or might not deserve it.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If he SAID that, I certainly hope you T'd him up. He showed you up big time.

The gesture alone might or might not deserve it.

I whacked a coach this season for that. He asked for an explanation, I started to give him one and then he gave me the dismissive wave. I channeled my inner-Snaqs and brewed some T.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If he SAID that, I certainly hope you T'd him up. He showed you up big time.

The gesture alone might or might not deserve it.

mbryon - he did not say those words. That's the only way I can think of to describe his arm/hand wave.

I'm curious how others here on the forum might have handled the situation based on the info provided.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DLH17

mbryon - he did not say those words. That's the only way I can think of to describe his arm/hand wave.

I'm curious how others here on the forum might have handled the situation based on the info provided.

HTBT... that could be T-worthy ... and might not be as well.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by dlh17

mbryon - he did not say those words. That's the only way i can think of to describe his arm/hand wave.

I'm curious how others here on the forum might have handled the situation based on the info provided.

whack!

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If he SAID that, I certainly hope you T'd him up. He showed you up big time.

I don't know. The image I have is that "Phooey on you" is almost too silly to be taken seriously. I might be too astonishedly amused to call the T.

Thanks to Hornets and Jurassic for the explanations. Jurassic, your asterisks strike me curious, though.

[DLH17]

Good feedback.

Let's elevate this a little bit and insert this situation into a regular season and/or post season varsity game.

Same logic applies? Or, does the levity, etc of the game change things a bit?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Jurassic, your asterisks strike me curious, though.

Deal with it.

[stripes]

Originally Posted by DLH17

I had a varsity boys coach go ballistic on me over the weekend when I called a foul on one of his guys for putting hand on the ballhandler's hip and keeping it there from the 3 point line all the way to the block.

He gave me (and this was a first for me) the big "PHOOEY ON YOU" - turned head and waved hand at me.

It was awesome, I must say.

I gave a coach a T for this type of gesture last season DURING A TIMEOUT. Felt great about doing it.

[Mrcrash3]

RichMSN and J Rut +1
Ron's clinic time was devoted to HS ball he made sure we understood this. He also agreed with Rich that too many fouls are called on the floor. ( This term does not appear in any rule or case book)