Learned 2 New Things Last Night

[mattmets]

One serious, one not so much.

Cal Ripken league game, uses OBR with some modifications.

1) R1 and R3, pitcher in stretch. He comes straight up with the leg, then wheels and throws to his F6, who is playing at his position. I balk F1 for throwing to an unoccupied base. Apparently this has been an issue before, because defensive head coach comes out with rule in hand, where there is a rule comment that a pitcher may throw to an unoccupied base with R1 and R3, regardless of whether the runners are in motion. So I agree with the coach, but enforce the balk on the fact that F1 threw to F6 at his position, not at second base. Correct?

This comment doesn't exist in OBR, does it? I've never heard of the rule, and the only thing I can find is 8.05(d), which supports my call. The pitcher did not become a fielder, nor was R1 advancing at TOP.

2) R1 and R2, next batter hits a shot to right-center that one hops over the fence. I call a GRD, award second and third. Runners off with the pitch, and R1 had gotten past second by time the ball left the field of play. 1B coach couldn't believe that R1 was not awarded home. Tried for 3 innings to convince me that because the runner had passed second, he got home. Did it all civilly, and for some reason didn't understand the rule, so I didn't have to even raise my voice in talking to him, but I was shocked that this guy, who I've seen coaching for 3 years, didn't know a ground-rule double is 2 from TOP.

All of this in 100+ degree heat and 65% humidity, in the first inning. Easy game the rest of the way and the coaches weren't that bad, but man, it was the weirdest first inning I've ever seen.

[Tim C]

"So I agree with the coach, but enforce the balk on the fact that F1 threw to F6 at his position, not at second base. Correct?"


Incorrect. Only at first base does the player have to be at the base.

" . . . but I was shocked that this guy, who I've seen coaching for 3 years, didn't know a ground-rule double is 2 from TOP."


Please show me ANY documentation that confirms this award this would be real helpful too me.

Regards,

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by mattmets

Tried for 3 innings to convince me that because the runner had passed second, he got home. Did it all civilly, and for some reason didn't understand the rule, so I didn't have to even raise my voice in talking to him, but I was shocked that this guy, who I've seen coaching for 3 years, didn't know a ground-rule double is 2 from TOP.

All of this in 100+ degree heat and 65% humidity, in the first inning. Easy game the rest of the way and the coaches weren't that bad, but man, it was the weirdest first inning I've ever seen.

a) I am ending this conversation ASAP; the coach doesn't know the rule.

b) Said coach does NOT get to keep jabbering about the same call 3 innings later, because he is in either the parking lot or his Barcalounger.

c) I hate to use this word, but NEVER be shocked when a coach doesn't know a rule.


Ace in CT

[mattmets]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"So I agree with the coach, but enforce the balk on the fact that F1 threw to F6 at his position, not at second base. Correct?"


Incorrect. Only at first base does the player have to be at the base.

Even with this rule modification and no runner at 2nd?

" . . . but I was shocked that this guy, who I've seen coaching for 3 years, didn't know a ground-rule double is 2 from TOP."


Please show me ANY documentation that confirms this award this would be real helpful too me.

Regards,

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by mattmets

I balk F1 for throwing to an unoccupied base. Apparently this has been an issue before, because defensive head coach comes out with rule in hand, where there is a rule comment that a pitcher may throw to an unoccupied base with R1 and R3, regardless of whether the runners are in motion.

I can't say I've EVER heard that not being a balk I guess I've been wrong for years. Unless he is trying to drive back a runner, I was under the belief it is a balk

Tim-

That is a two base award from the TOP. Unfortunately, I don't have my rule books with me for documentation but in the NFHS it's in the handy baserunning awards chart. (I will make the assumption it's the same for OBR)

Matt-

You should never get surprised at what rules a coach doesn't know, I agree with ACE. I had a coach this year that didn't know you could tag up on a caught FOUL fly ball. I rolled my eyes at the thought

-Josh

[JJ]

Play #1 - you said the coach came out "with rule in hand, where there is a rule comment that a pitcher may throw to an unoccupied base with R1 and R3, regardless of whether the runners are in motion." Huh? Where did he find this in print, or did he print it himself after he typed it out?
Pitchers can only throw to an unoccupied base to attempt to retire an advancing runner or to make an appeal.

Play #2

FED Rules page 53 - The Baserunning Awards Table

OBR - Sorry, can't find it right now.

PBUC - nothing listed.

JJ

[Tim C]

"OBR - Sorry, can't find it right now.

"PBUC - nothing listed."

I ask because I have seen MLB umpires twice this year award home on R1 running on a pitch and a long "ground rule double" that bounced over a fence.

Both awards drew a large (long) arguement but neither ended in an ejection or "reversal."

I contend here that under OBR the award is NOT from TOP.

Regards,

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by mattmets

One serious, one not so much.

Cal Ripken league game, uses OBR with some modifications.

1) R1 and R3, pitcher in stretch. He comes straight up with the leg, then wheels and throws to his F6, who is playing at his position. I balk F1 for throwing to an unoccupied base. Apparently this has been an issue before, because defensive head coach comes out with rule in hand, where there is a rule comment that a pitcher may throw to an unoccupied base with R1 and R3, regardless of whether the runners are in motion. So I agree with the coach, but enforce the balk on the fact that F1 threw to F6 at his position, not at second base. Correct?

This comment doesn't exist in OBR, does it? I've never heard of the rule, and the only thing I can find is 8.05(d), which supports my call. The pitcher did not become a fielder, nor was R1 advancing at TOP.

2) R1 and R2, next batter hits a shot to right-center that one hops over the fence. I call a GRD, award second and third. Runners off with the pitch, and R1 had gotten past second by time the ball left the field of play. 1B coach couldn't believe that R1 was not awarded home. Tried for 3 innings to convince me that because the runner had passed second, he got home. Did it all civilly, and for some reason didn't understand the rule, so I didn't have to even raise my voice in talking to him, but I was shocked that this guy, who I've seen coaching for 3 years, didn't know a ground-rule double is 2 from TOP.

All of this in 100+ degree heat and 65% humidity, in the first inning. Easy game the rest of the way and the coaches weren't that bad, but man, it was the weirdest first inning I've ever seen.

Seems everyone is more intent on continuing other arguments than answering your question.

I don't know what ruling the coach may have showed you on the first one but I don't know of such a ruling. I thought you ruled correctly to begin with. Throwing to a fielder who isn't at the base is a feint which is only illegal at first. But in this case, there is no runner and no play at second so it is a balk since it is illegal to feint to an unoccupied base.

On the second, to be picky, it isn't a "ground rule" double for the reasons the others stated. It's a "book rule" double, more specifically, 7.05(g)

Rita

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"OBR - Sorry, can't find it right now.

"PBUC - nothing listed."

I ask because I have seen MLB umpires twice this year award home on R1 running on a pitch and a long "ground rule double" that bounced over a fence.

Both awards drew a large (long) arguement but neither ended in an ejection or "reversal."

I contend here that under OBR the award is NOT from TOP.

Regards,

Then things must be achangin'.

Rita

[Tim C]

Rita:

That is exactly why I have asked the question in the way I did.

For decades I was under an understanding that in OBR umpires were allowed to "place" runners at their discretion in a play that ended as a ground rule double.

I also was under an impression that by "use and tradition" that the award was always two bases from TOP. I watched many, many arguements that involved a runner that was far past second base when the ball went out of play and were only awarded third base.

Now this year I have seen twice and additional base awarded. That is why I ask for OBR (PBUC) documentation that said the award is TOP.

I mean I know things are "chagin'" at the MLB level (heck three years ago I saw Joe Brinkman change a shot down the left field line from foul to fair DURING THE PLAY) and wondered what is up here.

Regards,

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"OBR - Sorry, can't find it right now.

"PBUC - nothing listed."

I ask because I have seen MLB umpires twice this year award home on R1 running on a pitch and a long "ground rule double" that bounced over a fence.

Both awards drew a large (long) arguement but neither ended in an ejection or "reversal."

I contend here that under OBR the award is NOT from TOP.

Regards,

Tim,

From the MLBUM, 5.8:

(7) If a fair fly ball is deflected in flight by a fielder and then goes out of play outside the foul lines, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

(8) If a fair ball not in flight is deflected by a fielder and then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

From JEA:

6.09(f) The batter becomes a runner when any fair ball which, either before or after touching the ground, passes through or under a fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through any opening in the fence or scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery, or vines on the fence, or which sticks in a fence or scoreboard, in which case the batter and the runners shall be entitled to two bases.

Cross References: 6.09(e), 7.05(f)

Historical Notes: This rule was inserted for the first time in the 1950 recodification. It reiterates what is specified in 6.09(e) and it incorporates these additional contingencies:

1. This rule applies to ANY fair ball (one which has bounced or one which is in flight).
2. This rule covers balls which stick in the fence or scoreboard.
3. This rule includes, for the first time, a ground rule to cover any batted, fair ball that goes through any opening in the fence or scoreboard.

Professional Interpretation: A ball which lodges only momentarily and then immediately comes out shall be kept in play as long as it remains in sight.
A ball which disappears from sight by entering an opening in the fence or scoreboard shall be killed immediately.

Awards are made based on the position of the runners at the time of the pitch.

and, in a case play following the discussion of 7.05(f):

Runner on first. The runner is running on the pitch. The batter rips a line shot into right center. The ball bounces once and then disappears in the vines covering the outfield wall. The ball does not reappear. Before the ball disappeared in the vines, the runner from first was half-way to third. Place the runners.

RULING: The ball should be killed when it does not reappear "immediately." Both runner and batter-runner are awarded two bases from time of pitch. It does not matter where the runner/s were at the time the ball was killed.

Also, the J/R and BRD also support the notion that this is a TOP award.

So, I'm not familiar with the 2 sitches you are referring to, but ALL credible interpretation indicates this is a TOP award and I can't find ANYTHING credible that suggest otherwise.

JM

[mattmets]

Originally Posted by JJ

Play #1 - you said the coach came out "with rule in hand, where there is a rule comment that a pitcher may throw to an unoccupied base with R1 and R3, regardless of whether the runners are in motion." Huh? Where did he find this in print, or did he print it himself after he typed it out?
Pitchers can only throw to an unoccupied base to attempt to retire an advancing runner or to make an appeal.

This was in print, in a rule book for the league they play in. I was shocked to see it, but I couldn't rule against what was said in print in the book. I'd never ever heard of throwing to an unoccupied base NOT being a balk, but I'll be damned if this guy didn't have the rule book opened to the page by time I got to the mound to explain it to his pitcher.

Originally Posted by mrumpire

2. You beat me to it. Mattmets...there is no reference to a "ground rule double" award in the the rule book. There are two base awards, but ground rules are not covered in the rule book. They are "grounds" rules covered at each ball park.

We had actually discussed this at the plate meeting, which was the first time I've ever had it brought up. We said it would be two bases, unless the ball rolled under any holes in the fence, in which case I would use my judgment. This might clear up some of the confusion I caused by using "ground rule" vs "book rule".


UmpJM, thanks for the rule citations, which I wouldn't have gotten from the MLBUM and JEA. Tim, what do you use to justify saying that runners should get the extra base? I'm not trying to start a whizzing match, I'm just trying to understand where, other than two situations this year, you would get that interpretation from.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by mattmets

This was in print, in a rule book for the league they play in. I was shocked to see it, but I couldn't rule against what was said in print in the book. I'd never ever heard of throwing to an unoccupied base NOT being a balk, but I'll be damned if this guy didn't have the rule book opened to the page by time I got to the mound to explain it to his pitcher.

A coach brought an openned rule book out on the field?

Buh-Bye.

[Tim C]

To UmpJM:

A tip of the cap and thanks tons.

Regards,

[RPatrino]

UmpJM, good work. Are you on vacation?? LOL