PC foul or not?

[Mark Padgett]

This came up at our kids rec league Board meeting last night. NF rules: A1 goes airborne and releases a shot. While he is still in the air, A1 fouls B1 (pushes him away hard with his arm). The shot then goes in. Here's the questions:

1) is this a player control foul or a common foul on A1?
2) does the basket count?
3) would it make any difference on anything if the foul occurred after the shot went in?

What do you guys think?

[APG]

I would say it'd be a player control foul. The player is an airborne shooter per your words. 4-19-6 says, "A player-control foul is a common foul committed by a a player while he/she is in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter." As such, the basket wouldn't count whether the ball was released or whether the foul occurred after the ball went in the basket (10-6-11 1b.).

Casebook play 4.12.1 Situation A seems pretty much close to the play.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

This came up at our kids rec league Board meeting last night. NF rules: A1 goes airborne and releases a shot. While he is still in the air, A1 fouls B1 (pushes him away hard with his arm). The shot then goes in. Here's the questions:

1) is this a player control foul or a common foul on A1?
2) does the basket count?
3) would it make any difference on anything if the foul occurred after the shot went in?

What do you guys think?

1) He!! yes it's a player control foul!
2) No, you can never score a basket on a player control foul.
3) Yes it would make a difference, since the ball went in, it became dead when the ball went through the net, thus it is a technical foul for illegal contact that can't be ignored during a dead ball. However, the smart referee would just come out strong with the player control foul and leave it at that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CLH

3) Yes it would make a difference, since the ball went in, it became dead when the ball went through the net, thus it is a technical foul for illegal contact that can't be ignored during a dead ball. However, the smart referee would just come out strong with the player control foul and leave it at that.

I am not sure I agree with this. An airborne shooter is still and airborne shooter until they come to the floor. I do not think it matters if the ball is through the hoop. I know it does not matter if a violation like GT or BI took place.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by CLH

3) Yes it would make a difference, since the ball went in, it became dead when the ball went through the net, thus it is a technical foul for illegal contact that can't be ignored during a dead ball. However, the smart referee would just come out strong with the player control foul and leave it at that.

This is not a technical foul.

4-19-5c A technical foul is an intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter.

[Pantherdreams]

This is interesting only beacause of a recent fiba rule change that requires a foul committed during the inbounding of the ball but prior to the release of the ball by the inbounder to be unsportsmanlike as it is clearly not a play on the ball.

So I've either got a no call, player control foul or unsportsmanlike.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

This is interesting only beacause of a recent fiba rule change that requires a foul committed during the inbounding of the ball but prior to the release of the ball by the inbounder to be unsportsmanlike as it is clearly not a play on the ball.

So I've either got a no call, player control foul or unsportsmanlike.

I don't like that change, and wouldn't want it to come to NFHS. There are lots of legitimate plays that can be personal fouls that occur during throw-ins. With that reasoning, you should call all off-ball fouls unsportsmanlike since they aren't plays on the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

This came up at our kids rec league Board meeting last night. NF rules: A1 goes airborne and releases a shot. While he is still in the air, A1 fouls B1 (pushes him away hard with his arm). The shot then goes in. Here's the questions:

1) is this a player control foul or a common foul on A1?
2) does the basket count?
3) would it make any difference on anything if the foul occurred after the shot went in?

What do you guys think?

Was this meant for rookies?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CLH

3) Yes it would make a difference, since the ball went in, it became dead when the ball went through the net, thus it is a technical foul for illegal contact that can't be ignored during a dead ball. However, the smart referee would just come out strong with the player control foul and leave it at that.

It's already been corrected, but I feel like piling on. This isn't accurate. When an airborne shooter is involved, a personal foul (offensive or defensive) is the correct call.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's already been corrected, but I feel like piling on. This isn't accurate. When an airborne shooter is involved, a personal foul (offensive or defensive) is the correct call.

Yes, yes pile it on...note my last line, call it a PC foul and be done with it...the technical is for fun, it excites the gym, you guys are no fun!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CLH

Yes, yes pile it on...note my last line, call it a PC foul and be done with it...the technical is for fun, it excites the gym, you guys are no fun!

Sorry, your last line implied the official should make the right call for the wrong reason. I guess maybe I misread you.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

This is interesting only beacause of a recent fiba rule change that requires a foul committed during the inbounding of the ball but prior to the release of the ball by the inbounder to be unsportsmanlike as it is clearly not a play on the ball.

So I've either got a no call, player control foul or unsportsmanlike.

The rule says that fouls by the defending team during a throw-in (before the ball is released) are U. But I don't see how this may apply in this situation. [This interpretation will change starting from the next season: it will be enforced only during the last two minutes of the fourth period or overtimes, see p. 24 of the Official interpretations 2010.]

As you know, FIBA doesn't require that the ball is alive for a personal foul to be called (not technical, I mean). Mark's situation, in FIBA, would be a common foul (unless the push meets the requirements for being unsportsmanlike, intentional for NF, it's pretty the same concept). Since no team had control of the ball, there will be

(a) a throw-in for team B, if the foul is not the fifth (or more) in the period;
(b) two FT for B1, if team A is in team penalty (fifth foul or more);
(c) two FT for B1 and possession for team B, if A1's foul is judged as a U.

Score the basket in case the ball goes in, independently of when the foul happens (the ball never becomes dead when in flight for a try). In this case team B can run the endline for the throw-in.

Ciao

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sorry, your last line implied the official should make the right call for the wrong reason. I guess maybe I misread you.

He said a "smart" official

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

He said a "smart" official

Which could be taken any number of ways.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

This is interesting only beacause of a recent fiba rule change that requires a foul committed during the inbounding of the ball but prior to the release of the ball by the inbounder to be unsportsmanlike as it is clearly not a play on the ball.

FWIW, the NBA rule has a rule that states that a defensive foul before the ball is released on the throw-in is two shots. A similar foul in the last two minutes of the fourth/overtime is one free throw by anyone on the court at the time of the foul, and the ball.