"I'm 52 years old, and in all my years..."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by DLH17

edit: I did 8 games Sat and 8 games Sun and never slowed down....

That part is simply unbelievable, especially when you say that you were hustling at all times, using correct mechanics, etc.

Or BS, to put it another way.....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by DLH17

My POV is "completely" off? Interesting. Not according to my assignor. He asks for 4 things from his officials: be on time = 15 mins early, call fouls/violations, don't say anything to anyone you don't want repeated and be in position to make calls = hustle.
...

I noticed switching on all fouls and reporting fouls from the proper reporting area on not on his list.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by DLH17

"...of watching basketball, I've never said anything to an official after a game until now." "You are the most whistle happy official I've ever seen in those 52 years. I just thought you should know that."

This is the fan feedback I received after an MAYB game over the weekend in which 3 players on "her" team fouled themselves out of the game....and lost by 15 points in the process.

I could only smile and chuckle as she removed all doubt that she was absolutely clueless about the game and how it should be officiated.

After reading through this thread I'm gonna say that Grandma has more credibility here in my eyes.

From your comments you seem (to me) to be a less experienced guy who needlessly stresses switching and reporting from a certain area in summer sets, claims to have worked 16 games in 2 days without slowing down at all, is star struck by varsity coaches, and may take yourself a bit too seriously. My experience with officials like this leads me to believe that there is a good possibility that you are whistle happy as well.

I will still work some AAU/summer league type set ups where I do 4-5 or even more games in one day. I do these for the guy who called many of my HS games and mentored me as an official. Many of us have worked for him for years and know the tricks of the trade to save our legs in these type of situations. And the assinger encourages it. We hustle during live ball and get in position to have good angles on plays but on dead ball situations we work together to save ourselves for the long haul. Coaches, players, and fans don't notice this and the very few that do understand and are concerned with the accuracy of calls and how we manage the game, nothing else.

I understand if you are working on something or practicing your mechanics but there is really no reason to exert extra energy on the type of stuff your stressing in these situations. And as others have said people understand that you are not gonna get the same type of officiating paying people $25/game and asking them to work multiple games in a row as you are when guys are making $70 and working 1 game. That's life and common sense.

Whenever I step on the court I will do my best to give the competitors quality officiating but I am also gonna be smart and efficient in how I spend my energy in AAU/summer tournament ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DLH17

I'll be sure to let him know you said that being in position during tournament games that he schedules is not important. (blue font)

I do not work for him so I really am not concerned what he thinks.

Originally Posted by DLH17

I'm not setting any standard(s)...just striving to work up to the level of more experienced officials and the example they set.

Good for you. But as people pointed out that those standards you quoted did not include the thing you are advocating. That says it all.

Originally Posted by DLH17

I work for more than just the $20. Since I don't know the same people you know, it's impossible to know why they do what they do the way they do it.

I get paid around $60 a game for a high school game. I get over $100 for a college game (in some cases $150). I am not exerting the same amount of energy for one high school or college game that I am working for an AAU game. And no one I know that works is doing the same either. I even worked at a college game a couple of "paid" games and I can tell you that I did not do the same things during the "paid" game as I did when the camp games were going on. And no one did when I watched them work. But if you claim you do that is fine with me. And I will even take it a step further, I know many officials that will not hustle that much during live ball play. Why? Because they are being paid a fraction of what they would make and you are asking them to work multiple games in a row or over the course of a few days. And that is why many people here are calling what you saying as BS.

Look, do what you want and expect what you want, but do not expect that people will agree with you.

Peace

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That part is simply unbelievable, especially when you say that you were hustling at all times, using correct mechanics, etc.

Or BS, to put it another way.....

doing 8 games in a 2 on 1 off format for two days affords three 60 min breaks each day. hustling and using good mechanics is not difficult at all in that format.

8 games in a row on back to back days - ya, that would be a tall order and can see how people would think as they are.

[DLH17]

back to my daughter's games....here's some examples of what i've seen:

trail calling a jump ball at or below the front court ft line extended while he is standing still, positioned at the time line in the backcourt and was straight lined. lead official was moving in to see the play

as lead, coasting into 'position' at just under the ft line extended in the front court
instead of below the base line

official failed to signal, audibly or with a directional, possession on unclear oob violations

official failed to indicated what type of foul was committed - coaches left wondering if there was a push, hold, hand check, block

failed to chock the clock during final two minutes of game when stopped clocked action started

these are off the top of my head

this was the primary reason for my initial comments that perhaps part of the reason why some officials 'get into trouble' might actually be because they bring it on themselves

hustling to be in proper position would probably reduce the number of instances of angst on the part of said official, coaches and players.

then again, he was getting paid $20 for that game, so what should i have expected? the guy to do his job? i guess not.

realistically, there all types of officials...some are not the strongest on the rules...some aren't the strongest game managers....some aren't the best communicators.....some are having bad days.....etc etc. one thing that most officials have control over is their own effort. if effort and hustle are present, i think an official can be much more effective and respected.

[JRutledge]

DLH17,

This is what you said way back in this thread.

Originally Posted by DLH17

And, to be honest, I'm appalled by the lack of hustle and interest on the part of the officials working some of her games. Little to no switching, reporting from the baseline by the lead official, no bump and run.

Anyone that watched me work this weekend (w/ the exception of 52 yr old granny super fan) saw an official that was working his butt off. I despise laziness.

No comments about positioning during live ball or even comments about where at all were made in your original comment. You specifically referenced several dead ball actions which the things highlighted and underlined says. Now when that did not go over well, you now give examples of plays during live ball.

And yes we can control our hustle, but many also realize what these games are. Money grabs and nothing more. I cannot recall that I have ever got a big assignment from a summer AAU ball (or even high school during the summer) game where there was no camp element to them. And because most officials know this, you get what you pay for.

Originally Posted by DLH17

realistically, there all types of officials...some are not the strongest on the rules...some aren't the strongest game managers....some aren't the best communicators.....some are having bad days.....etc etc. one thing that most officials have control over is their own effort. if effort and hustle are present, i think an official can be much more effective and respected.

And I couldn't not really give a damn what coaches think of me during the summer. Be happy I am even out there. I can do other things during that period of time.

Peace

[Adam]

And tonight I watched two partners overhustle as they chased loose balls out of bounds.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

DLH17,

This is what you said way back in this thread.



No comments about positioning during live ball or even comments about where at all were made in your original comment. You specifically referenced several dead ball actions which the things highlighted and underlined says. Now when that did not go over well, you now give examples of plays during live ball.

I apologize for not being more specific. Nonetheless, what I listed are things that bothered me during her games. Add them all up and you can see why I feel strongly about it. If you can't put down your hatchet long enough to realize I'm not your internet nemesis, I suggest you consider moving on to other reading/posting that doesn't support high blood pressure.

It's amazing how quickly you get turned sideways when I post.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...and I couldn't not really give a damn what coaches think of me during the summer. Be happy I am even out there. I can do other things during that period of time.

Peace

I enjoy meeting new people/renewing old acquaintances when officiating. Other officials, players, coaches. I enjoy what I do within reason. Summer is a great time to be a little more relaxed - wear shorts, talk before after games when another game is getting ready to start - yet still work on mechanics, management and people skills. Sounds like you have it all down and don't give a crap about much else. I'm happy for you. I doubt I'll ever lose my pure love of the game and all the stuff that goes with it. You can paint that - and probably will - in some unflattering way towards me, and that's fine. I'll keep having fun and improving and you can keep on "not giving a damn".

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And tonight I watched two partners overhustle as they chased loose balls out of bounds.

That's where I draw the line! Officials in the leagues/tournaments I work expect the players to chase loose balls. I'll fetch the dribblers trying to sneak off, but the players chase the ones under the bleachers or going out the exit.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by DLH17

back to my daughter's games....here's some examples of what i've seen:

as lead, coasting into 'position' at just under the ft line extended in the front court
instead of below the base line

official failed to indicated what type of foul was committed - coaches left wondering if there was a push, hold, hand check, block

For the record, I frequently do both of these during summer games with a running clock.
A. In my area we work most of our varsity contests with 3 officials. I've learned that the C often has the best look at plays. It can actually be more effective to have a C and T in many situations than a L and T. This is especially true in transition. Therefore, as I come down to the new L, I will often pause around the FT line extended. If the ball stays up high, I'll hold that position for a bit. If offensive team takes a quick shot or drives to the basket, I actually have a great look. If the action settles and they try to work the ball down low, I'll move down to the endline to cover the post players better. The positioning of the players and the ball location dictate where is the best location to observe the action. The end line isn't automatically the best just because the book says to stand there.

B. Who cares if it was a push, hold, or block? It was foul. If the coach needs to know, he can ask. Most of them don't care. You don't see the scorer recording the number of holds do you?

Originally Posted by DLH17

hustling to be in proper position would probably reduce the number of instances of angst on the part of said official, coaches and players.

True. There is more credibility for the call and less for the coach or player when an official is well-positioned. Of course, that isn't going to stop the complaining. If a call goes against a team or player, there will be complaints even if the official has a perfect view.

Originally Posted by DLH17

then again, he was getting paid $20 for that game, so what should i have expected? the guy to do his job? i guess not.

I've tried to explain above that the official can sometimes do his job from positions other than those described in the manual. However, if that argument isn't your cup of tea, then I'll add that if tournament organizers weren't so greedy and didn't attempt to stick as many dollars into their pockets as possible, they could offer more than $20 per game for officials which would attract more officials to an event. This would alleviate the need for officials to work so many games in a day and permit for more effort to be expended during each contest. It is due to the short-sightedness of those who put on the events that officials are forced to conserve their energy and pace themselves throughout the day at these events.
Most officials aren't fabulous athletes. The ones who are won't be working for $20 per game. So again, it's a case of getting what you pay for. If you want to attract better talent then you have to offer more compensation. That's the case in the business world.

Originally Posted by DLH17

...one thing that most officials have control over is their own effort. if effort and hustle are present, i think an official can be much more effective and respected.

There is no argument to that. However, unless one is a marathon specialist, there is a limit to how much one can run during multiple games.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DLH17

I apologize for not being more specific. Nonetheless, what I listed are things that bothered me during her games. Add them all up and you can see why I feel strongly about it. If you can't put down your hatchet long enough to realize I'm not your internet nemesis, I suggest you consider moving on to other reading/posting that doesn't support high blood pressure.

It's amazing how quickly you get turned sideways when I post.

The funny part about this conversation is the entire time you have tried to make this personal. This is not personal. This is just a conversation based on what you said. And the more you have been called on your BS, the more you try to run from your original comments. I have a lot more going for me than what we are talking about here. If you really think my blood pressure is going up over this conversation, maybe you have more to learn about officiating than I thought. And that is really obvious this week as I have several officiating things going on that I have to participate in.

Originally Posted by DLH17

I enjoy meeting new people/renewing old acquaintances when officiating. Other officials, players, coaches. I enjoy what I do within reason. Summer is a great time to be a little more relaxed - wear shorts, talk before after games when another game is getting ready to start - yet still work on mechanics, management and people skills. Sounds like you have it all down and don't give a crap about much else. I'm happy for you. I doubt I'll ever lose my pure love of the game and all the stuff that goes with it. You can paint that - and probably will - in some unflattering way towards me, and that's fine. I'll keep having fun and improving and you can keep on "not giving a damn".

Here you go again. I did not say anything about meeting people and working or not working on mechanics. Actually for me summer ball is used for one reason and one reason only. See more plays. By this time of the year my schedule for the coming season is pretty much set. I do not need summer ball to establish this outside of camps. And certainly not during AAU games. And coaches have no say in if I get hired or not hired in any high school or college league. So that is why I do not give a damn about what they think or do not think of my game. For the record I have had run-ins with coaches only to see them during the regular season and see them realize that what they think of me obviously does not matter. So I do not need their approval of any kind to work games when it counts. Apparently you do need that approval and that is why you take this all to a personal level that I was only commenting on your words about hustle, not our personal stances in officiating.

Peace

[DLH17]

Good points, Nevada. Comparing 2 man lead positioning near the ft line extended in some situations to 3 man C positioning makes sense.

As far as who cares about what the foul was....I've heard/seen many coaches left wondering what their player did and ask so they can coach their player after the fact at some point. So, I've just gotten into the habit of giving a preliminary and also showing the call when reporting. Overall, it seems like coaches tend to move on easier if they know why the official stopped play. Questions are always accepted, tho, in case they just can't figure out what the heck just happened even with proper reporting. That's ok. Communication with game participants can be enjoyable to a point.

Of course, no amount of hustle and proper positioning will prevent all complaining by coaches and players. To think it will is being naive at the least. Hustling is better than not hustling, tho, if that's all ya' got going for ya'.

The point made about game fees is spot on. At the very least, we probably deserve an increase in pay for these types of games. Heck, 20 bucks was prolly the game fee 10 years ago, no?

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The funny part about this conversation is the entire time you have tried to make this personal. This is not personal. This is just a conversation based on what you said. And the more you have been called on your BS, the more you try to run from your original comments. I have a lot more going for me than what we are talking about here. If you really think my blood pressure is going up over this conversation, maybe you have more to learn about officiating than I thought. And that is really obvious this week as I have several officiating things going on that I have to participate in.





Here you go again. I did not say anything about meeting people and working or not working on mechanics. Actually for me summer ball is used for one reason and one reason only. See more plays. By this time of the year my schedule for the coming season is pretty much set. I do not need summer ball to establish this outside of camps. And certainly not during AAU games. And coaches have no say in if I get hired or not hired in any high school or college league. So that is why I do not give a damn about what they think or do not think of my game. For the record I have had run-ins with coaches only to see them during the regular season and see them realize that what they think of me obviously does not matter. So I do not need their approval of any kind to work games when it counts. Apparently you do need that approval and that is why you take this all to a personal level that I was only commenting on your words about hustle, not our personal stances in officiating.

Peace

JR....relax. This isn't personal. Everything I've said about my experiences in this thread are factual.

I'm ok with the fact you "don't give a damn".

Perhaps move on to another thread you can control or whatever it is you find gratifying.'

edit: and, I never said anything about "needing coach's approval". you assume that to be true. in reality, i have fun what i do. it's a people business.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by DLH17

doing 8 games in a 2 on 1 off format for two days affords three 60 min breaks each day. hustling and using good mechanics is not difficult at all in that format.

You hustled and used the correct mechanics on all plays in every game. And you're 52 years old. And you never slowed down one little bit, even in your eighth game of your second day doing 8 games/day.

BS, DLH17, BS.

There's a real world out there. You're living in LaLaLand.

And btw, when everybody in that real world out there tells you that maybe you should re-think your position, don't you think that maybe...just maybe...it might not be a bad idea to consider that option?