"I'm 52 years old, and in all my years..."

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

$25/game in what regular season league?

Local competitive leagues - 5/6 grade and 7/8 grade.

Regardless....if an official has agreed to and is getting paid to officiate 4 or 14 games, the effort should be there unless something unforseen has occurred that would prevent max effort.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Local competitive leagues - 5/6 grade and 7/8 grade.

Regardless....if an official has agreed to and is getting paid to officiate 4 or 14 games, the effort should be there unless something unforseen has occurred that would prevent max effort.

Like I said, must be a regional thing. I know one thing, when paying $20-25/game there is going to be some sort of trade-off. A majority (not all) of the officials are going to fall into 2 categories:

A) Newer officials who hustle their a$$es off but will make mistakes during the games due to inexperience.

B) More experienced officials who are there to put some $$$ in their pockets. These experieced officials are not going to run themselves silly during deadballs.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Local competitive leagues - 5/6 grade and 7/8 grade.

Regardless....if an official has agreed to and is getting paid to officiate 4 or 14 games, the effort should be there unless something unforeseen has occurred that would prevent max effort.

You're imposing your own personal standards on others. These are not "regular" games and the rate being paid reflects that. They're rec-league type games that are being paid accordingly and are getting performances commensurate with the pay being offered. I'm talking not about judgment, integrity, live ball hustle, and knowledge and such but the points about not switching on every foul, or reporting from a greater distance.

Of course, at those rates, they're not going to get a lot of the better refs to come out either....it is just not worth it.

Plus, any assignor willing to regularly put someone on more than 2 or 3 games is already indicating that the expectations are different. It is not possible to hustle for 8 games like you should and do for one or two. Even the best athletes really can't keep up that intensity for that long.

[Judtech]

Having re entered the "Summer/Spring" circuit, I think there is a 'happy medium' that can be reached. I don't like officials who make calls from PAST mid court b/c they can't get down the floor, nor do I care for officials who get overly sloppy on their mechanics.
If you are used to working 3 person crews and are now doing back to back (to back) games in a 2 person format, you can adjust some of the switches/rotations etc, to both look professional and give it the best coverage you can. IMO, it is more important to watch your body language and 'the little' things b/c those will tell the teams, assignor and everyone else in the gym whether you are 'into it' or not.
If you are getting paid you should put forth effort, but to expect "maximum effort' when doing back to back or multiple game formats is a bit much

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're imposing your own personal standards on others. These are not "regular" games and the rate being paid reflects that. They're rec-league type games that are being paid accordingly and are getting performances commensurate with the pay being offered. I'm talking not about judgment, integrity, live ball hustle, and knowledge and such but the points about not switching on every foul, or reporting from a greater distance.

Of course, at those rates, they're not going to get a lot of the better refs to come out either....it is just not worth it.

Plus, any assignor willing to regularly put someone on more than 2 or 3 games is already indicating that the expectations are different. It is not possible to hustle for 8 games like you should and do for one or two. Even the best athletes really can't keep up that intensity for that long.

I'm not imposing anything on anyone, other than myself. If my partner doesn't want to hustle, then there isn't much I can do about it other than make sure I'm in correct position to do a good job. Hopefully, he takes the hint and elevates his "game"....which does happen quite frequently. It's a game of give and take, tho. My "attitude" on the forum about this isn't nearly as rigid on the court where my actions speak louder than words. It's all done with the right attitude, as well.

[hoopguy]

My perspective is as both a ref and a fan watching my daughter play AAU. There is a huge discrepancy in work ethic I see out there. The issue partly stems from the assignor. At one of the venues I work AAU, the assignor sent out a pre-AAU season email explaining exactly what he expected from his refs. Two man games.... He expects his refs to switch on all shooting fouls. He expects his refs to run from endline to hash mark at a minimum. Most reporting is done from where the foul occurred unless it is a shooting foul and switching is occurring. All other venues I have either watched or participated require much less than this. Also, this assignor assigns a max of 4 games. I believe there is no way you can hustle for more than 4 boys AAU games unless you are still in college and in great shape or just fooling yourself. After 4 games you should be completely soaked in sweat and exhausted if you are hustling.

Now from a parent/fan perspective, it often grates at me to see refs walk from endline to ALMOST midcourt and call only half court basketball. I have actually seen two refs each just call one half the court and in some venues this is not unusual and these guys never go faster than a slow walk. I guess it is up to the individual but I hope I am never so hard up that I turn into one of those guys.

NOTE -- my post is based strictly on two person games.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

My perspective is as both a ref and a fan watching my daughter play AAU. There is a huge discrepancy in work ethic I see out there. The issue partly stems from the assignor.

There it is. Like any other job, you ultimately have to make the boss happy, or he won't hire you again. Whether the boss puts forth a professional attitude or a lazy one, the workers will typically follow. If a worker doesn't do it as desired, the boss will take corrective action or just find someone else. In officiating, they'll often times just find someone else.

As for lazy officiating during off-season games, if it's a running clock, I can why officials wouldn't switch on every foul or walk-and-talk. Sometimes, it's about getting in every bit of basketball you can for the kids.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

My perspective is as both a ref and a fan watching my daughter play AAU. There is a huge discrepancy in work ethic I see out there. The issue partly stems from the assignor. At one of the venues I work AAU, the assignor sent out a pre-AAU season email explaining exactly what he expected from his refs. Two man games.... He expects his refs to switch on all shooting fouls. He expects his refs to run from endline to hash mark at a minimum. Most reporting is done from where the foul occurred unless it is a shooting foul and switching is occurring.

My perspective is as an assignor who has to find people to cover hundreds of these games on a weekend......

If I told my people that they had to treat each game like a good HS varsity contest while doing multiple games a day, I couldn't find enough people to cover a fraction of the games. You get what you pay for. And if you want to pay typical low rec rates, you're gonna bodies. It just ain't worth it for a lot of officials, especially when you factor in the abuse that you know the officials are going to get.

The people who put on these tournaments do so to make as much money as they can. Typically, they could care less about the quality of the officiating they receive. They just want coverage. And the know-nothing fans and coaches don't have a clue either whether they're getting a good or bad whistle. If every single call doesn't go their way, the officiating is terrible anyway in their minds.

The main reason that any official does these off-season games is M-O-N-E-Y! And that fits right in with the reason these games are being played in the first place. If you want professional officiating, then put on a professional show and pay the appropriate rates. If you want to run a typical AAU off-season run-and-gun tournament, then don't whine about the officiating that you gonna get. It matches the play.

It's nice to have lofty officiating ideals, but there's real life involved too.

JMO.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you want professional officiating, then put on a professional show and pay the appropriate rates. If you want to run a typical AAU off-season run-and-gun tournament, then don't whine about the officiating that you gonna get. It matches the play.

It's nice to have lofty officiating ideals, but there's real life involved too.

JMO.

Or you can run an officiating camp where officials are being evaluated, and then you can dictate more professionalism in these tournaments. Even that has limitations as it takes a lot of work and people to pay money to come to a camp and work multiple games.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

My perspective is as an assignor who has to find people to cover hundreds of these games on a weekend......

If I told my people that they had to treat each game like a good HS varsity contest while doing multiple games a day, I couldn't find enough people to cover a fraction of the games. You get what you pay for. And if you want to pay typical low rec rates, you're gonna bodies. It just ain't worth it for a lot of officials, especially when you factor in the abuse that you know the officials are going to get.

The people who put on these tournaments do so to make as much money as they can. Typically, they could care less about the quality of the officiating they receive. They just want coverage. And the know-nothing fans and coaches don't have a clue either whether they're getting a good or bad whistle. If every single call doesn't go their way, the officiating is terrible anyway in their minds.

The main reason that any official does these off-season games is M-O-N-E-Y! And that fits right in with the reason these games are being played in the first place. If you want professional officiating, then put on a professional show and pay the appropriate rates. If you want to run a typical AAU off-season run-and-gun tournament, then don't whine about the officiating that you gonna get. It matches the play.

It's nice to have lofty officiating ideals, but there's real life involved too.

JMO.

From my experience, this post by JR is extremely accurate.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

From my experience, this post by JR is extremely accurate.

Mine too. If they want to pay $20 to $25 for a game and want me to work 4 games, I'm pacing myself. Period. And nobody cares.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DLH17

I'm not imposing anything on anyone, other than myself. If my partner doesn't want to hustle, then there isn't much I can do about it other than make sure I'm in correct position to do a good job. Hopefully, he takes the hint and elevates his "game"....which does happen quite frequently. It's a game of give and take, tho. My "attitude" on the forum about this isn't nearly as rigid on the court where my actions speak louder than words. It's all done with the right attitude, as well.

Well you would just have to be upset with someone like me that I do not hustle. Because if you think I am going to run like a regular game because you want to or do not want to, then you are sadly mistaken. Usually in these sittings I could be working from 2 to 6 games during a day or more than that over a couple of days. And in many of these cases we are not talking about camp games. I am not going to risk injury or even my health just to run when the players in many cases are not running the same either.

Peace

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well you would just have to be upset with someone like me that I do not hustle. Because if you think I am going to run like a regular game because you want to or do not want to, then you are sadly mistaken. Usually in these sittings I could be working from 2 to 6 games during a day or more than that over a couple of days. And in many of these cases we are not talking about camp games. I am not going to risk injury or even my health just to run when the players in many cases are not running the same either.

Peace

Don't take it personally, JR. I don't know you - thus my post was never direct toward you.

If you don't want to run your butt off and risk injury for a competitive tournament game, don't. I'm not suggesting anyone, myself included, should do anything that involves risking injury.

I think this discussion has more or less defined "hustle" for competitive tournament games, tho. And, it would obviously be something less than a Tues/Fri night boys big class varsity game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Don't take it personally, JR. I don't know you - thus my post was never direct toward you.

If you don't want to run your butt off and risk injury for a competitive tournament game, don't. I'm not suggesting anyone, myself included, should do anything that involves risking injury.

I think this discussion has more or less defined "hustle" for competitive tournament games, tho. And, it would obviously be something less than a Tues/Fri night boys big class varsity game.

Dude, relax. No one is responding to you because it is personal. I am responding to you because I think your point of view is off, completely off to be exact. And I actually would probably hustle more than you to be honest. I used to work a league where they only hired one official and I hustled more than most people here talk about. I just am realistic as to what these games are and I would not be expecting everyone to go balls out for a game they are paid in some cases not a 3rd of what they would make during the regular season.

Peace

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Dude, relax. No one is responding to you because it is personal. I am responding to you because I think your point of view is off, completely off to be exact. And I actually would probably hustle more than you to be honest. I used to work a league where they only hired one official and I hustled more than most people here talk about. I just am realistic as to what these games are and I would not be expecting everyone to go balls out for a game they are paid in some cases not a 3rd of what they would make during the regular season.

Peace

My POV is "completely" off? Interesting. Not according to my assignor. He asks for 4 things from his officials: be on time = 15 mins early, call fouls/violations, don't say anything to anyone you don't want repeated and be in position to make calls = hustle.

re: you hustle more than me? what can i say other than, how would you know? i'm sure you are a stallion and can more than hold your own. as i've already said, don't take this personally. this thread wasn't designed with you in mind.