Intentional or excessive intentional

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The drawback is that it gives the impression that all eyes were on the same players.

And it makes the calling official look weak as hell if the call is changed also.

What ever happened to the concept of don't make a call in the first place unless you are sure of that call? I can only speak for myself, but I didn't call intentional or flagrant fouls unless I was sure the calls were appropriate.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The drawback is that it gives the impression that all eyes were on the same players.

Personally, I think it looks better if the X is given immediately rather than after discussion; but maybe that's just me.

The vast majority of these situations occur on fast break plays or drives to the basket, where there are generally more than one set of eyes tracking the play already. The "common" method is for me - as non-calling official who has a double whistle - to come to my partner and say something like "Are you thinking of upgrading that to an Intentional?" or "This might be a good one to go Intentional on" or "That's a great Intentional call, partner"...

I really don't think it makes anyone look "weak" or "unsure", but that's just mho...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The vast majority of these situations occur on fast break plays or drives to the basket, where there are generally more than one set of eyes tracking the play already. The "common" method is for me - as non-calling official who has a double whistle - to come to my partner and say something like "Are you thinking of upgrading that to an Intentional?" or "This might be a good one to go Intentional on" or "That's a great Intentional call, partner"...

I really don't think it makes anyone look "weak" or "unsure", but that's just mho...

rocky - this is also the way I was taught to handle the situation. Maybe it's an NCAA-W mechanic, but if done properly, I don't think it makes anyone look weak, but rather it makes the crew look strong and on the same page.

Like you mentioned, I've seen this used most often on a fast-break situation, where there are probably 2 officials close by, usually L and C. I once saw a play like that develop - hard foul on a breakaway layup, the defender definitely went for the ball, but the offensive player went hard to the floor. Both L and C had a whistle because it came from C's side of the floor, watched the two of them get together right away, both of them were nodding yes to each other during the quick conversation, and the C came out with the "X". Neither coach had a complaint with the call or the way it was handled.

I found out later the conversation went something like this: "Whatcha got?" "Got a foul on B23" "Intentional?" "She was going for the ball" "From my angle she gave her an extra hard swipe and a push from the side; I was going to come in with the intentional" "Think so? Ok then" It all happened quickly, and both officials were looking at each other and nodding the whole time, so unless you were standing right next to them, you would've thought they were both agreeing they had the same call.

So, when handled correctly, you can give your partner information without appearing to disagree with them or change their mind on a call. Doesn't work all the time, or with everybody, but it can be done.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

rocky - this is also the way I was taught to handle the situation. Maybe it's an NCAA-W mechanic, but if done properly, I don't think it makes anyone look weak, but rather it makes the crew look strong and on the same page.

And fwiw, I disagree completely with both of you. Jmo but I think that any official with any confidence at all in his own play-calling ability doesn't feel the need to caucus or have a poll on any foul call that they might make. If they did, they wouldn't make the call in the first place.

If they think it's intentional, they signal that immediately. If they feel it's flagrant, they also signal that immediately. They not afraid to take the credit...or flak...for their calls.

Getting input on a violation such as a tipped ball going OOB is a whole 'nother animal. In that situation, a call has to be made. That doesn't hold true for a foul call.

What are gonna do if your partner says "Gee, imo I don't think there was a foul on that play." Are you gonna take that input into account also?

Again, jmo but I think that foul calling is the one area where you can't call by committee. If you can't trust your own judgment, you shouldn't blow the whistle in the first place.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And fwiw, I disagree completely with both of you. Jmo but I think that any official with any confidence at all in his own play-calling ability doesn't feel the need to caucus or have a poll on any foul call that they might make. If they did, they wouldn't make the call in the first place.

If they think it's intentional, they signal that immediately. If they feel it's flagrant, they also signal that immediately. They not afraid to take the credit...or flak...for their calls.

Getting input on a violation such as a tipped ball going OOB is a whole 'nother animal. In that situation, a call has to be made. That doesn't hold true for a foul call.

What are gonna do if your partner says "Gee, imo I don't think there was a foul on that play." Are you gonna take that input into account also?

Again, jmo but I think that foul calling is the one area where you can't call by committee. If you can't trust your own judgment, you shouldn't blow the whistle in the first place.

And, fwiw, I think your position on this is very unrealistic. No one is talking about not having the stones to call something, or needing to be talked into something - you are going to the extreme to try to make your point.

Example: Quick steal and break to the far end. I am T and have to bust my butt to get down there to L. I get there, see contact by the defender from behind but am straight-lined somewhat, and blow my whistle. My C comes running in and says "We should go Intentional. That was a big-time shove in the back." I am going to say "Thank you" and go to the X. My C had a fantastic angle on it and gave me information so we could get that call correct.

If I had a good look at it, I simply say "No, partner. I've got this one" and away we go. Like M&M said, it's quick and to the point.

[Judtech]

ROCKY You are on dangerous ground b/c it would appear we are in agreement and have come thru the 'same school' in this regards!!! You may want to watch the company you keep on this board, you may get a reputation!! I am secure enough in my manhood, that I don't take getting additional information as an afront to my machismo!!
JR- This is not a situation where one official is calling a foul and another official is coming in saying no it is not a foul. In fact, it is an attempt to avoid that. What this avoids is a double whistle where one official comes up with an X and one does not. In that case, you now have a situation where someone is going to, in your words, look weakashell b/c their call, either the X or the common foul, is going to be ignored/overruled. By getting together, BOTH (or heaven forbid all 3) officials come out with the same thing and the game goes on.
Wasn't it the Beatles who sang "I Get By With A Little Help From My Friends"? Sort of similar but with no Yoko!

[Adam]

Jud, you credit yourself with too much space in JR's head. I'd be willing to bet you don't occupy any space up there.
Truly, all that resides in that space is love for the Yankees, hatred for the Red Sox, and a weird fascination with squirrels and walnuts.
Oh, and a grudging respect for Nevadaref.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

.......too much space in JR's head.

There's a phrase you don't see every day.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Judtech

ROCKY You are on dangerous ground b/c it would appear we are in agreement and have come thru the 'same school' in this regards!!! You may want to watch the company you keep on this board, you may get a reputation!!

To be honest, this is probably the first time Jurassic and I have disagreed about anything in a long, long time...and it's a pretty minor disagreement. I trust him and his knowledge.

And if I was worried about the company I keep, I would quit "hanging" with Snaqwells and M&M Guy!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

To be honest, this is probably the first time Jurassic and I have disagreed about anything in a long, long time...and it's a pretty minor disagreement. I trust him and his knowledge.

As I respect and trust yours...and M&M...and a whole bunch of other regular contributors. As you all know without me having to say it really.

Now that today's episode of Dr. Phil is over, can we resume regular programming?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

If I had a good look at it, I simply say "No, partner. I've got this one" and away we go. Like M&M said, it's quick and to the point.

And that was my point. If I'm not sure, I shouldn't be making the call. And if my partner is that sure on a dual responsibility call, he should be coming in and taking over the call anyway without having to caucus with me.

I think we agree on the basic principles.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Jud, you credit yourself with too much space in JR's head. I'd be willing to bet you don't occupy any space up there.

There's a lot of empty space up there.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And that was my point. If I'm not sure, I shouldn't be making the call. And if my partner is that sure on a dual responsibility call, he should be coming in and taking over the call anyway without having to caucus with me.

I think we agree on the basic principles.

JR, could you please help me by telling how you would handle the following situation?

You are the C on a fast break. The play is 1 v 1 with the defender trailing after the ball was stolen.

The offensive player jumps from the block on the other side of the lane from you which is only a few feet in front of the Lead. The Lead is in good position and in front of the action. The defender comes from your side of the offensive player, but is still positioned well over on the other side of the FT lane, probably only a couple of feet inside the lane.
The defender fouls the offensive player by taking a wild arm swing, missing the ball, and smacking the opponent directly in the face. The offensive player and defensive player fall to the floor directly at the feet of the Lead.

The Lead has a whistle and a fist in the air.

What do you right now, if anything? Do you even blow your whistle on this?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

JR, could
You are the C on a fast break. The play is 1 v 1 with the defender trailing after the ball was stolen.

The offensive player jumps from the block on the other side of the lane from you which is only a few feet in front of the Lead. The Lead is in good position and in front of the action. The defender comes from your side of the offensive player, but is still positioned well over on the other side of the FT lane, probably only a couple of feet inside the lane.
The defender fouls the offensive player by taking a wild arm swing, missing the ball, and smacking the opponent directly in the face. The offensive player and defensive player fall to the floor directly at the feet of the Lead.

The Lead has a whistle and a fist in the air.

What do you right now, if anything? Do you even blow your whistle on this?

I close down and try to get in between the 2 players on the floor to keep anything from escalating.

If my partner has great position with the play coming right at him, I have to trust him. I may have blown my whistle but I'm gonna let my partner take the call. If he doesn't want to go with intentional for excessive contact, then he's the one that has to explain it later if an evaluator thought that should have been the correct call.

You?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I close down and try to get in between the 2 players on the floor to keep anything from escalating.

If my partner has great position with the play coming right at him, I have to trust him. I may have blown my whistle but I'm gonna let my partner take the call. If he doesn't want to go with intentional for excessive contact, then he's the one that has to explain it later if an evaluator thought that should have been the correct call.

You?

Thank you, sir. That is precisely what I did. For the record, I did blow my whistle and put a fist up as well, but dropped when I saw that my partner had a call. I felt that the foul was clearly an intentional, but that it was my partner's decision to make as it right in front of him.

This was a person who I had never officiated with before as he was from another area.

This play has been talked about quite a bit in my area as it took place in a State Championship game. That talk has made me question my actions for several months now. It is nice to hear that you support my decision to let him take care of his business.

Our third, who was very unhappy with the decision, came all the way down the court from T to talk with the calling official. He informed him that he could elevate that to an intentional. The L responded that the defender made a play for the ball (by rule not something which prevents the defender from being charged with an X) and therefore he didn't wish to go intentional. I stayed out of that conversation. I caught serious flak for my inaction.

Anyway, as I wrote I've been mulling this over for several months now and this thread provided me with the perfect opportunity to get a straight opinion from someone who has no stake in the matter. Thanks.