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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 08:28am
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Loud Slap

I had this call in the very first game of my season, and I've been thinking about it ever since.

Situation: A1 gets a rebound from a Team B shot, and is 80 feet from his basket. Everyone else has cleared out except for B1. B1 tries to steal the ball, but instead getting A1's wrist with a loud slap that the whole gym could hear. By instinct I called the foul.

As I've thought about this more, I have to wonder if this would be a proper time to apply advantage/disadvantage. A1 didn't lose the ball as a result of the slap, nor was he put at any real disadvantage since he was 80 feet from his basket.

Would you have called the foul as I did? Or would you have applied advantage/disadvantage?
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 08:46am
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There are no absolutes or always in what we do. I've learned that being patient on the whistle & responding vs. reacting to the action helps with those type of plays.
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 09:59am
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I think this is an interesting topic that you bring up. I remember when I was a rookie official 6 years ago, well still this day I feel like a rookie compared to most of the individuals I work with based on age an experience. Anyways back to your question. I would have gone with the whole advantage/disadvantage concept here.

Reason behind that is because remember the slap of the wrist could also be like the sound of slapping the ball. Also, if you have a patient whistle you should be able to tell if there was an advantage gained or not. Just remember a key concept and this is something I was taught my first year from a division 1 womens' offiicial whom I have to upmost respect for. Remember the letters RSBQ, Rythym Speed Balance Quickness, if any of those are disrupted then you will have a foul.

A slap on the wrist doesn't neccessarly cause for concern for a foul. If the player can play through it then play on. Coaches might not agree with us, but when do they, on the call, but if you have a chance to explain that his/her player was able to continue play without and problems than I think you would be on the right track.

I hope this helps.

Peace,
JB
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 10:02am
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This is a tough one to let go because the slap is so loud that grandma hears it over the humming of her oxygen tank. Honestly, the lower the level of ball, the more likely it is you'll need to get this. Higher level (JV and above), you can let it go and, at most, need to give a short explanation to a coach who asks why you didn't call it. You'll catch grief from the fans at any level, but who cares, right?

I wouldn't feel bad about getting it, though, since you're not taking anything away from the offense (unless A1 proceeds to throw a bullet pass to a streaking A2 for a wide open layup.)
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 10:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bas2456 View Post
I had this call in the very first game of my season, and I've been thinking about it ever since.

Situation: A1 gets a rebound from a Team B shot, and is 80 feet from his basket. Everyone else has cleared out except for B1. B1 tries to steal the ball, but instead getting A1's wrist with a loud slap that the whole gym could hear. By instinct I called the foul.

As I've thought about this more, I have to wonder if this would be a proper time to apply advantage/disadvantage. A1 didn't lose the ball as a result of the slap, nor was he put at any real disadvantage since he was 80 feet from his basket.

Would you have called the foul as I did? Or would you have applied advantage/disadvantage?
bas2456, I was'nt there but if the A1 is dribbling the ball and hand is on the ball when the LOUD slap occurred per rule I have nothing, however if the A1 is standing there holding the ball when he gets the crap knocked out of him I most likely have a foul (a stupid foul that B1 has earned and I'm sure Coach B would probably not object to).
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 10:07am
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Originally Posted by Da Official View Post
bas2456, I was'nt there but if the A1 is dribbling the ball and hand is on the ball when the LOUD slap occurred per rule I have nothing, however if the A1 is standing there holding the ball when he gets the crap knocked out of him I most likely have a foul (a stupid foul that B1 has earned and I'm sure Coach B would probably not object to).
If the slap is on the wrist, it very well could be a foul. If it's close, it's on the hand. Whether he's dribbling or holding doesn't matter.

1. Where is the slap (hand or not-hand)?
2. Did it cause any hardship to the ball handler?
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 10:15am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
If the slap is on the wrist, it very well could be a foul. If it's close, it's on the hand. Whether he's dribbling or holding doesn't matter.

1. Where is the slap (hand or not-hand)?
2. Did it cause any hardship to the ball handler?
Snaq, my eyesight is NOT good enough to determine the wrist. I either see a hand or an arm. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though...I don't have a rule book present but its my understanding if a defender accidentically hits the hand of the dribbler while the dribbler's hand is in contact with the ball it is not a foul.

Also, if you punch or slap me in the face or my hand TO ME I've been caused hardship BUT not sure if that's a rule of law I should follow since by rule you can accidentally slap my hand if I'm dribbling.

If this doesnt' jive with the NFHS rules please advise.
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Last edited by Da Official; Tue May 11, 2010 at 10:22am.
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 10:23am
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Whether the player is dribbling or holding the ball, the defender may slap his hand provided the slap is incidental to an attempt to slap the ball. Dribbling vs holding is irrelevant.

Let's leave the punch out of it, as that's a flagrant foul regardless of advantage.
Let's leave the face out of it, as I'm calling a slap in the face unless the dribbler is in the process of blowing by the defender for a layup.

A slap on the hand is a slap on the hand, perfectly legal.

A slap on the wrist that doesn't cause any hinderance to the offensive player is incidental contact most of the time. Same as a slap on the arm or leg.

Now, in practice, we may have to get this sometimes in the open court.
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 10:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Whether the player is dribbling or holding the ball, the defender may slap his hand provided the slap is incidental to an attempt to slap the ball. Dribbling vs holding is irrelevant.

Let's leave the punch out of it, as that's a flagrant foul regardless of advantage.
Let's leave the face out of it, as I'm calling a slap in the face unless the dribbler is in the process of blowing by the defender for a layup.

A slap on the hand is a slap on the hand, perfectly legal.

A slap on the wrist that doesn't cause any hinderance to the offensive player is incidental contact most of the time. Same as a slap on the arm or leg.

Now, in practice, we may have to get this sometimes in the open court.
Snaq, thanks for the insight. I'll check over my rules to make sure I have this down. I do agree sometimes we do have to call this in the open court. Thx!
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 10:31am
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Originally Posted by Da Official View Post
Snaq, thanks for the insight. I'll check over my rules to make sure I have this down. I do agree sometimes we do have to call this in the open court. Thx!
By the way, let me know if I'm wrong. my book is at home so I'm going off memory here. I'd rather you correct me than Nevada, for reasons that are entirely juvenile.
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 10:36am
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After reading the responses, I think I should have let it go. Despite the loud slap, A1 was standing still, holding the ball (not dribbling), 80 feet from the basket.

A1 didn't lose control of the ball on the slap, thus not put at a disadvantage. A more patient whistle from me would have allowed us to play on.
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 11:10am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Whether the player is dribbling or holding the ball, the defender may slap his hand provided the slap is incidental to an attempt to slap the ball. Dribbling vs holding is irrelevant.
...
A slap on the hand is a slap on the hand, perfectly legal.

A slap on the wrist that doesn't cause any hinderance to the offensive player is incidental contact most of the time. Same as a slap on the arm or leg.

Now, in practice, we may have to get this sometimes in the open court.
paraphrased from NCAA rules -
legal use of the hand(s) includes contact with player's hand while the player's hand is in contact with the ball while player has player control (of the ball)
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 11:20am
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Originally Posted by bas2456 View Post
Would you have called the foul as I did? Or would you have applied advantage/disadvantage?
I am probably going to call this a foul...I would prefer to get those slapping/grabbing/reaching-type fouls that occur when a defensive rebound has been controlled so that I don't have a rebounder swinging his elbows at/near the face of an opponent ("since the ref won't get this guy off of me, I guess I'll have to do it", says the rebounder). Then I've got all kinds of issues I've got to deal with....(did the elbow make contact? is that intentional? is it flagrant? what happens when similar elbow contact occurs in a different situation later in the game? etc.)

When you call this a foul, players quickly learn NOT to do that (slap/grab/etc) and simply run back down court on defense.
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 11:41am
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Guidelines for rebounding fouls:

1. Possession/Consequence

2. Cleanup

This play falls under #2. I think when everyone sees/hears, you have to penalize. If you let it go, the offensive player may throw and elbow next time.
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Old Tue May 11, 2010, 11:48am
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Originally Posted by jeffpea View Post
When you call this a foul, players quickly learn NOT to do that (slap/grab/etc) and simply run back down court on defense.
That's what I think. If you don't call it, you could be sending a message that you condone it.

Slapping at the ball is usually risky, because you might make contact with something else other than the hand. If B1 did this, you have nothing to ponder.
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