Bulls/Cavs- changed call?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I disagree completely. Just call the damn play without any pre-determination of what the call should be. Simply decide on each individual call whether you felt the shooter was fouled in the act of shooting or not on that particular play. All you're doing is thinking yourself into trouble.

Bad advice.

And that's my opinion.

His difficulty appears to be that he may not have a solid grasp of exactly what constitutes being in the act of shooting.
I've asked him to research that point.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Simply decide on each individual call whether you felt the shooter was fouled in the act of shooting or not on that particular play. All you're doing is thinking yourself into trouble.

Bad advice.

And that's my opinion.

I understand JR & appreciate the opinion of decision maker! Thats exactly what I do, on each play that a player is fouled on a drive to the hoop, if they dont dribble again, pass or request a TO, they're shooting FTs in my ballgames.

For the record, the TIMING of the whistle is what makes it easier to sell. If you pop upon immediate contact, you'll get some grief. Patient whistles on drives to the bucket are much more easier to sell.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

His difficulty appears to be that he may not have a solid grasp of exactly what constitutes being in the act of shooting.
I've asked him to research that point.

Nevada, I dont have any "difficulties" with the act of shooting & when it begins/ends nor the continuation rule. We just dont see eye to eye, no more no less...

IMHO officials that look for a reason to take the ball out instead of rewarding the player with FTs have the difficulty
Just kidding, I respect your stance but I will keep doing what has been working me & my progression in the craft

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

For the record, the TIMING of the whistle is what makes it easier to sell. If you pop upon immediate contact, you'll get some grief. Patient whistles on drives to the bucket are much more easier to sell.

For the record, I don't agree with that either. If you get the call correct, there is never a need to sell anything. Why do you have to sell any right call? And I could care less if I get some grief. Just deal with what comes up. And personally, I'm always a little bit concerned about any official who does worry about getting some grief. I'm always wondering whether they're gonna be able to make a tough call that they know is gonna bring the house down on their head.

Simply appearing confident in what you are doing is always the best sell imo.

Jmo.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For the record, I don't agree with that either. If you get the call correct, there is never a need to sell anything. Why do you have to sell any right call?

Have you ever seen a CC go down the toilet because of the officials weak presentation to the table?
Or an IC not be questioned whatsoever because of the officials verbal at the spot & a strong presentation?

Thats what I mean by "selling the call" NOT hopping all over the court & those type of antics.
We have to be believable JR or nobodys gonna buy our act. I've seen "that guy" and boy do they have long nights when nobody is buying their act.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I could care less if I get some grief. Just deal with what comes up. And personally, I'm always a little bit concerned about any official who does worry about getting some grief. I'm always wondering whether they're gonna be able to make a tough call that they know is gonna bring the house down on their head.

Couldn't agree with you more! My swag on the court is, what I DO speaks so loudly that I CANNOT hear what you say.
Meaning, once I pop & indicate 2 shots then the coach/players says "that was late" or "this is not the NBA" I'm going to the table stronger than normal, verbalizing/signaling where he got em & how play will continue in a very professional manner

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Simply appearing confident in what you are doing is always the best sell imo.

Jmo.

Great point! Inner self confidence is the best recipe to sell ourselves & our calls. Is everyone gonna buy our act all the time? NO! For the ones that dont comply or decide to go over the top, well, we have tools to take care of that

That's all I have to say on this. I may need assignments from you someday! lol

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by tref

Have you ever seen a CC go down the toilet because of the officials weak presentation to the table?

How, specifically, does a correct call go "down the toilet," for this or any other reason?

[tref]

Take a great call to the table in a weak manner in a camp or any evaluation sitch & you'll see.

Decision makers at the next levels are looking for Rs not U2s.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Have you ever seen a CC go down the toilet because of the officials weak presentation to the table?
Or an IC not be questioned whatsoever because of the officials verbal at the spot & a strong presentation?

Thats what I mean by "selling the call" NOT hopping all over the court & those type of antics.
We have to be believable JR or nobodys gonna buy our act. I've seen "that guy" and boy do they have long nights when nobody is buying their act.

I can tell you this, the coach, in my experience, is no more nor less likely to question a shooting foul call based on the timing of the whistle; and if you don't have a good answer for the coach's question, that will be the reason the crap hits the fan. If it's even close, the coach is going to question you to make sure you know what you're doing, and he's watching the shooter.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I can tell you this, the coach, in my experience, is no more nor less likely to question a shooting foul call based on the timing of the whistle; and if you don't have a good answer for the coach's question, that will be the reason the crap hits the fan. If it's even close, the coach is going to question you to make sure you know what you're doing, and he's watching the shooter.

Thats because we're so inconsistent when it comes to putting players on the line, especially at the HS level here in CO.

"Coach he began the habitual motion which preceeds the shot well before the foul occured", always works for me Snaqs.

[bradfordwilkins]

As someone who does almost an equal amount of Pro-AM to HS/NCAA games, I can tell you that while you may be assuming they are similar, the rule is significantly different in that the gather is NOT the beginning of the habitual motion as defined under NCAA/NFHS -- I do agree that with a patient whistle you can allow the player to get INTO his habitual motion... but make sure you understand they are different (sometimes by maybe a second at most - but an important distinction)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Thats because we're so inconsistent when it comes to putting players on the line, especially at the HS level here in CO.

"Coach he began the habitual motion which preceeds the shot well before the foul occured", always works for me Snaqs.

Agreed that it's not well applied; I've seen the shot waved off too many times, and that's exactly why coaches question it when we count a basket and/or award free throws when the foul occurs early in the shooting motion.