A changed call at Texas

[Carl Childress]

With the permission of Mark Land, here's a post from eTeamz that was the basis of some heated discussion here at The Official Forum.

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At today’s [2/16/01] University of Texas vs. Stanford game there was to me a bizarre turn of events. The Umps: Home: Wade Ford 1st: Jon Bible 2nd: Un-named 3rd: David Wiley.

Situation: 2 bottom of the sixth, Stanford leading 1-0; 2 outs; R1, R2, Jeff Ontiveros, who is a RHB, batting. Pitch obviously hits Jeff on the back foot. R1 trots to second. B/R starts down to 1st when PU calls him back “Where are you going?” Defense throws to second, where there are now two runners. The defense eventually tags R2 trying for 3rd. Defense trots of field.

Texas is HOT. Manager Garrido comes out argues for long time with Ford and gets no satisfaction; he then goes to Bible at 1st. I can hear Bible say that he did not see it hit the batter. Garrido is only getting madder. I was almost surprised that Bible did not chase him.

Garrido finally gives up and takes a couple of steps towards the dugout before he turns around and heads to U2 at second. Ford and Bible join them. After about 2 minutes, Ford signals that Ontiveros is awarded first, dead ball, no out. Almost 5 minutes after it started, Stanford retakes the field. The next batter singles to right, scoring one, R2 thrown out. Texas goes on to win 2-1.

It was obvious that U2 saw the ball hit the batter. What I will never understand is why he did not kill the play immediately. More, how could he just stand there while the manager discusses it with both PU & U1? I am sure he felt pretty lonely out there. I am pleased he eventually “got it right.”

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I belong to a college email community that includes Jon, so I wrote to ask: "What up?" Jon replied: "We didn't handle it well, and we have discussed that among ourselves, but we got it right."

I want to make three points:

1. Jon Bible continues to be one of the Neo-Romantics. He is, I am certain, the foremost umpire of the last quarter century to preach consistently: "Get the call right!" Come hell or high water, Jon expects only "right" calls. He and I have agreed to disagree "slightly" on this point. I say "slightly," because in this instance "getting the call right" was also legal.

2. Jon Identified two problems:

1. The first-base umpire (himself) did not follow his own rules. In 1986 Jon's speech at the St. Louis NASO convention was "Let the Players Make the Calls." I remember that well since Jon bought my breakfast that morning. If Jon had paid close attention to the actions of the batter, he would have known B1 was HBP. (I'm certain nobody will argue that a college batter can act at once and convincingly in such circumstances.)
2. The second-base umpire (in his sixth game at UT) saw the HBP but was afraid to call it since the CWS'ers (Bible and Ford) had said nothing. Jon assures me that umpire NOW knows: If you are 100% sure of what you see, wait a moment, and -- when the umpire charged with the primary responsibility does nothing -- sing out the call: "Dead ball! HBP!"

3. I approve of everything done in that sequence -- to get it right. Childress from here on out.

1. One umpire made a call: B1 wasn't hit by the pitch.
2. Another umpire had information. He was sure B1 was hit by the pitch.
3. Two umpires, in essence, had made different decisions on the play, but only Ford's decision had been "announced."
4. After consultation among the umpires, the improper call (no HBP) was reversed and the proper call (HBP) was adopted.

Since it was the right call properly arrived at, nobody was ejected. That kind of teamwork in the crew is what makes college ball so much fun.

Someone posted that surely those guys were "idiot umpires" who had called their last NCAA game, implying they were over-the-hill. I think just the reverse is true. Conference supervisors are looking for umpires who can handle explosive situations with dignity and aplomb.

[Jim Porter]

Great post Papa C.

I once worked the plate in a game with a partner who was rather new to the profession. Having been his clinic instructor and evaluator, I was quite intimidating to the poor chap. I tried to ease his tension, but it was natural. There wasn't much I could do.

There was a pitch that came in a little tight on the batter, and he didn't really react like he was hit. The coach yelled from the dugout, "Hey Jim, didn't that hit him?"

"Nope. I watched the ball all the way in. It missed him by a few inches," I said quickly.

Suddenly remembering my clinic instruction to him, my young partner said, "Time!"

"Oh no!" I thought.

He walked up sheepishly and said, "That hit him."

We had a long talk over a soda after that one!

Speak up right away fellas.

Don't wait!

[DDonnelly19]

I had posted this in another thread that has mysteriously disappeared...

I'm sure we've all been in this situation before -- 2 man crew, you're in "A". Batter appears to foul one off his foot (or HBP, whatever the case may be), yet the PU calls nothing. You're pretty sure the ball hit the batter, but since you're standing 100' from the play and your partner is only 5 feet from it, you give him the benefit of the doubt. The play continues, and once the play is over the manager starts chirping and your partner believes something happened, but since he was blocked out he called nothing. He asks you what you saw, and you tell him you have a dead ball. To me, this seems to be more of a "pulled foot, need help" situation, except the PU can't ask from help right away, nor does he need to. If the BU rules fair ball, play stands; if he rules dead ball, we start over.

Now, maybe some of the EWS'ers are wondering why this is any different than the now-infamous "Moose Play." In the situation above, the PU made no initial call. In Moose's play, he made a call, tried to convince the manager it was the right call, and then changed it after some added information. Disregarding bad mechanics, would it have been legal for Moose to have made an initial no-call on the play and then go ask for help?

Dennis

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by DDonnelly19
Disregarding bad mechanics, would it have been legal for Moose to have made an initial no-call on the play and then go ask for help?Dennis

No, Dennis: MB was trapped the instant he didn't corret his call.

Any call can be corrected. "He's out!" the umpire screams, then, seeing the ball on the ground, sheepishly bleats, "Safe."

Here's the main difference between MB's play and the UT play: Mike had sole responsibility for the force out at second. The call is his -- and his alone. But when a batter is hit by a pitch, every umpire has concurrent jurisdiction. Any umpire who saw the pitch hit Ontiveros could have signaled dead ball. Only one saw it, and he froze -- from lack of experience.

Remember: When the pitch comes in and the plate umpire says nothing, that is a call: The pitch didn't hit him. When the issue was being discussed earlier, some umpires neglected that vital point. In the UT play an umpire with concurrent jurisdiction later made a call: "The pitch did hit him." Two umpires made opposite calls on the same play; one was legally changed.

In the play that encited the thread, the umpire at second had sole jurisdiction, made a call, saw the ball on the ground, did not immediately "correct" his call (which would have been legal), and then went illegally to his partner, who quite rightly refused to intervene.

Finally, the initial error was compounded by a lie: "He dropped the ball on a transfer, Coach."

MB had several chances to extract himself from the goo, but like the second-base umpire at UT, his admitted lack of experience at that level worked against him.

We can all learn from the fiasco, though, both the original play and the UT play:

From the FIRST PLAY:

1. Use proper timing: See the play through from start to finish, which is: ball into glove, ball into hand.

2. Be ready to correct a call instantly if your timing goes bad. "He's out! No, safe! Safe!," pointing to the ball on the ground.

3. Choose the most likely result when something untoward happens. MB didn't see the hand move, but he did see the ball on the ground. The probable result is a drop.

4. Don't involve your partner unless he has concurrent jurisdiction.

5. Don't lie to the coach. Say, simply: "Coach, if I had another chance, I might call it differently." Or say truthfully, "Coach, I kicked this call in all likelihood. Take a shot or two, but don't go too far. Nobody feels any worse than I do."

FROM THE SECOND PLAY:

1. Let the players help you call some plays.

2. If you have concurrent jurisdiction on a play, when the primary umpire makes no call, it is your responsibility to do so. It's not an appeal play. Take charge: "Dead ball! HBP!"

[BJ Moose]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
.

1. One umpire made a call: B1 wasn't hit by the pitch.
2. Another umpire had information. He was sure B1 was hit by the pitch.
3. Two umpires, in essence, had made different decisions on the play, but only Ford's decision had been "announced."
4. After consultation among the umpires, the improper call (no HBP) was reversed and the proper call (HBP) was adopted.

Four very enlightening lines above. And all are exactly applicable to the great Ruminant Play! and the classic, OUT er SAFE call at 1st on the pulled foot.

Just change the sitch.

BU makes call, OUT.
Another Umpire, standing at attention at 45 feet has information. (F3 was WAY off the bag)
Two umpires, in essense, have made different decisions on the play, but only ONE was announced.
After consultation, the improper call is reversed and the proper call (SAFE) is made.

Mike Branch
Member
EWS

with all due respect, of course.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by BJ Moose


Four very enlightening lines above. And all are exactly applicable to the great Ruminant Play! and the classic, OUT er SAFE call at 1st on the pulled foot.

Just change the sitch.

BU makes call, OUT.
Another Umpire, standing at attention at 45 feet has information. (F3 was WAY off the bag)
Two umpires, in essense, have made different decisions on the play, but only ONE was announced.
After consultation, the improper call is reversed and the proper call (SAFE) is made. Mike Branch

Sorry, but that's not right.

1. In the "pulled-foot" play, the base umpire has sole responsibility for the call. It is his and his alone.

2. In the "hit by pitch" play, as in the batted ball hitting the runner, the dropped third strike, all the infield umpires have concurrent jurisdiction.

One of the first lessons you learned from your Youth Ball Supervisor was: "When you see that ball hit the batter, throw up your hands and yell 'Dead ball!' It's not an appeal, Mike. It's your call too. Sometimes (often) the plate umpire will be blocked. See the play, make the call."

An umpire with sole jurisdiction has two options when he suspects he is in trouble:

(1) Make a call, then correct it immediately.
(2) Ask for help BEFORE making a call.

Afterwards, unless the call matches one of the five recognized instances when a call can/must be changed, you are stuck forever with the original outcome.

Now, we know umpires of amateur games change those calls in a heartbeat. Then, when the trained umpire shows up at the park where Old Smitty has been practicing revisionism, the good umpire is the one everyone thinks screwed up.

Alas!

[DDonnelly19]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

No, Dennis: MB was trapped the instant he didn't corret his call.

Any call can be corrected. "He's out!" the umpire screams, then, seeing the ball on the ground, sheepishly bleats, "Safe."

Here's the main difference between MB's play and the UT play: Mike had sole responsibility for the force out at second. The call is his -- and his alone. But when a batter is hit by a pitch, every umpire has concurrent jurisdiction. Any umpire who saw the pitch hit Ontiveros could have signaled dead ball. Only one saw it, and he froze -- from lack of experience.

Remember: When the pitch comes in and the plate umpire says nothing, that is a call: The pitch didn't hit him. When the issue was being discussed earlier, some umpires neglected that vital point. In the UT play an umpire with concurrent jurisdiction later made a call: "The pitch did hit him." Two umpires made opposite calls on the same play; one was legally changed.

In the play that encited the thread, the umpire at second had sole jurisdiction, made a call, saw the ball on the ground, did not immediately "correct" his call (which would have been legal), and then went illegally to his partner, who quite rightly refused to intervene.

Finally, the initial error was compounded by a lie: "He dropped the ball on a transfer, Coach."

MB had several chances to extract himself from the goo, but like the second-base umpire at UT, his admitted lack of experience at that level worked against him.

We can all learn from the fiasco, though, both the original play and the UT play:

From the FIRST PLAY:

1. Use proper timing: See the play through from start to finish, which is: ball into glove, ball into hand.

2. Be ready to correct a call instantly if your timing goes bad. "He's out! No, safe! Safe!," pointing to the ball on the ground.

3. Choose the most likely result when something untoward happens. MB didn't see the hand move, but he did see the ball on the ground. The probable result is a drop.

4. Don't involve your partner unless he has concurrent jurisdiction.

5. Don't lie to the coach. Say, simply: "Coach, if I had another chance, I might call it differently." Or say truthfully, "Coach, I kicked this call in all likelihood. Take a shot or two, but don't go too far. Nobody feels any worse than I do."

FROM THE SECOND PLAY:

1. Let the players help you call some plays.

2. If you have concurrent jurisdiction on a play, when the primary umpire makes no call, it is your responsibility to do so. It's not an appeal play. Take charge: "Dead ball! HBP!"

Thanks for the input! I'll act accordingly in the future in such situations. Better to make the call right away than to sit and discuss it over tea and cookies after the fact.

Dennis

[DDonnelly19]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

1. In the "pulled-foot" play, the base umpire has sole responsibility for the call. It is his and his alone.

2. In the "hit by pitch" play, as in the batted ball hitting the runner, the dropped third strike, all the infield umpires have concurrent jurisdiction.
[/B]

It may be beneficial to create a list of situations where there is concurrent jurisdiction, and where there is sole jurisdiction. That way we'd all know when to speak up and when to shut up. A possible eUmpire.com article, perhaps?

Dennis

[dani]

My rule of thumb regarding long distance help is if I am 110% sure the situation occurred then I call it.

For example, the batter appears to foul one off his foot and I am working the bases. If I am 110% sure the ball got him I kill the ball immediately. If I am not 110% sure, no call is given. In addition, I can't be of any help to the plate guy upon appeal because if I was sure I had something I would have killed the play immediately.

[Ump20]

Originally posted by dani
My rule of thumb regarding long distance help is if I am 110% sure the situation occurred then I call it.

For example, the batter appears to foul one off his foot and I am working the bases. If I am 110% sure the ball got him I kill the ball immediately. If I am not 110% sure, no call is given. In addition, I can't be of any help to the plate guy upon appeal because if I was sure I had something I would have killed the play immediately.

I understand your desire for accuracy. Considering the BU is much further away on a possible hit ball fouled off a batter's foot it would seem that in most cases that should be the PU's call. Good mechanics dictate that PU in the slot should be able to see the strike on the low outside corner at the knees. It does not assume the PU will see the ball hit the batter's foot, especially if screened by the catcher or possibly the batter himself. Sometimes BOTH PU and BU in a two man system can miss the batted ball hitting the batter.

I was PU in a Connie Mack game last year in which the offensive coach claimed the batted ball had hit his batter. It was an easy groundball to SS and the batter ran a few steps before claiming he had been hit. Neither of us saw it and I told the coach that was "unfortunate". Later I learned from reliable sources that it indeed had NOT hit the batter. Deception can be contagious.

For those historians and Top Dogs I give you the 1969 World Series and Mookie Wilson. The plate umpire checked for shoe polish after Mets' Manager Gil Hodges claimed that Mookie Wilson had been hit by I believe it was a pitched ball. Comments anyone? I know ballplayers don't shine their shoes these days and sometimes nither do umpires. Jim/NY

[dani]

In 1998 I attended the Lone Star Umpire Camp, instructed by Jon Bible. After attending this 3 day camp, I too subscribe to the theory that all umpires on the field are responsible for getting the calls right. Yes, it is the primary responsibility of the plate man to get foul balls off the batters body. But if I am working the bags and am 110% sure the batter was hit I will kill it regardless.

Jon and his staff mentioned two other thought processes to consider:

When formulating your decision is the batter/runner acting like he was hit immediately or not.

If you call foul immediately, you have only a strike on the batter, for all intents and purposes a do-over. If you let the bastard play continue, you will have a controversy from one side or the other and probably the shitty end of the stick.

[Mark Land]

I am glad Carl passed my original post along to Jon. It is nice to hear his explination.

Some have posted that as a BU they will take action if they are 110% sure. (Ignoring, for a moment, that I am 110% sure of EVERYTHING.) I am not sure I would go that far.

If a batter appears to foul a ball off his foot, kill it. As was pointed out, it is at most a strike.

Should you be more sure about a HBP than a foul? Perhaps. Go with your best call. I agree you can only call what you see. That seems to be a "yes" or "no" question. As Jon pointed out, get help from the batter. Does this add up to 110%? I don't know; as an ump I only have to count to 4.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Mark Land
Should you be more sure about a HBP than a foul? Perhaps. Go with your best call. I agree you can only call what you see. That seems to be a "yes" or "no" question. As Jon pointed out, get help from the batter. Does this add up to 110%? I don't know; as an ump I only have to count to 4.

Mark,

Welcome to the Forum. I'm not sure if this is your first visit or not. I don't want to start you off here on a negative note, but I think as an umpire you at least need to be able to count to 9! (grin) Remember, you have to be certain that the defense has all nine of its players on the diamond at the start of a half inning.

I too was pleased to read Jon's explanation of that event at UT. I suspected there was a reasonable explanation as to why U2 didn't make a verbal call, even though he later admitted seeing the HBP. Having 2 CWS officials in your crew, when you apparently only have 6 games at that school under your belt, will do it to you every time, I'd say! (grin) I swear that I have NEVER been intimidated by the level of play I have been asked to call. OTOH, I certainly HAVE initially been intimidated when calling for the first time with some of the most respected officials in our country, including our No. 1 ranked official. Anyone who really wants to impress will understand why that happens.

Cheers,

[BJ Moose]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

5. Don't lie to the coach. Say, simply: "Coach, if I had another chance, I might call it differently." Or say truthfully, "Coach, I kicked this call in all likelihood. Take a shot or two, but don't go too far. Nobody feels any worse than I do." [/B]

Carl... a grand tip of the Antler. After all the @#%^ that my confession produced, your #5 above is the most professional advice I've ever seen. It is burned into my brain.. (if I had one that is....)

Mike

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by BJ Moose

Carl... a grand tip of the Antler. After all the @#%^ that my confession produced, your #5 above is the most professional advice I've ever seen. It is burned into my brain.. (if I had one that is....)

Mike
[/B]

I appreciate the kind words. I note also that the founder of the "emperor's society" did not identify himself as such in the post. That is a start in the right direction, isn't it?