Utah/Denver Shot Clock Violation

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My point is that the guy is irresponsible. As long as he continues to accept NCAA assignments despite not knowing the rules at that level and not attempting to learn them, he makes the rest of us look bad.

Of course, he thinks that he is doing a wonderful job.

To this day I have never made a college game look bad or made my partners look bad. U have no idea what I make a game "look" like. You have never seen me referee!

Who is "us"? cause if you are talking about refs as a whole, I'm pretty sure I fit the mold and the makeup of a referee. I believe I have and show respect for all of "us" who wear the uniform.

Are you on some kind of a high horse???? you make it sound like you are so all high and mighty. Where do you get off?

I mean please do tell, if you are a big time DI referee I will apologize right now and go back in my hole. As you notice I don't engage myself in college questions on this forum sooo much. I just get on here and try and learn the rule from discussions. As you can tell, this was related to pro rules so I answered and was, in fact, unaware of the rule for college. Even if I had read the rule for college, I still wouldn't have believed that I couldn't reset the clock cause the word "recognizing" means that I recognize that there is a 2 second(or whatever) differential and that the 35 seconds has expired.

I have not engaged anyone in a long time who has attempted to berate me on this forum, but for you to say I make officials everywhere look bad, that is pure defamation and disrespectful. I would never say anything to anyone like that unless I had actually watched them work and then I would let them know in private.

I take your accusation very seriously. I do this for a living and up to this point in my life, which has not been a long one, it has been my life's work. I respect the people who do it... at all levels and I respect the game and have the utmost love for it. There is not a day that goes by that I wouldn't love to talk basketball and you have virtually just spit at my feet and disrespected me and the job we all love and enjoy to do sooo much.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

To this day I have never made a college game look bad or made my partners look bad.

Since you admittedly don't know the NCAA rules, you likely have and just aren't aware of it.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Who is "us"? cause if you are talking about refs as a whole, I'm pretty sure I fit the mold and the makeup of a referee. I believe I have and show respect for all of "us" who wear the uniform.

Not if you don't bother to study the rules ahead of time and take the court unprepared to correctly handle situations that may arise.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I answered and was, in fact, unaware of the rule for college. Even if I had read the rule for college, I still wouldn't have believed that I couldn't reset the clock cause the word "recognizing" means that I recognize that there is a 2 second(or whatever) differential and that the 35 seconds has expired.

Exactly my point. You don't even know the basics of an NCAA shot clock violation, yet you work these games and think that you are doing a good job. Every time that you incorrectly reset the clock because you somehow got the notion that you can, you screw one of the teams and embarrass every conscientious person who dons the stripes. Simply put, you need to learn the rules, and furthermore you need to learn the importance of actually applying them in a contest. That's what a real referee does.
PS Your convoluted definition of "recognizing" is utterly laughable. You are dead wrong on this point.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I have not engaged anyone in a long time who has attempted to berate me on this forum, but for you to say I make officials everywhere look bad, that is pure defamation and disrespectful.

I haven't written anything that is untrue. By your own admission, in this specific case and several other in the past, you don't know certain rules and are at a loss as to how to handle some basic situations in an NCAA game.
You are the one who is being disrespectful. Each time that you take the court at this level without proper preparation you are disrespecting the two teams, their coaches, their supporters, your partners, and the avocation of officiating. You are saying that they aren't important enough for you to bother to get it right for them. All of their practice time and hours of video study are belittled by your lack of preparation.
What makes you think that it is okay for you to behave in this manner? Hopefully, this is a sin of youth which you will outgrow.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I take your accusation very seriously. I do this for a living and up to this point in my life, which has not been a long one, it has been my life's work. I respect the people who do it... at all levels and I respect the game and have the utmost love for it. There is not a day that goes by that I wouldn't love to talk basketball and you have virtually just spit at my feet and disrespected me and the job we all love and enjoy to do sooo much.

If you actually do take officiating seriously, then you sure don't show it. You need to change your ways and put in the required study time to be able to properly perform you duties. You can't always count on someone else who does possess the proper knowledge to be there and to handle these things for you. When you take that step I'll stop chastising you.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By the sounds of the college rule. If a player is just dribbling the clock out and there was supposed to be a 1 second differential and the officials don't hit their whistle or "recognize" it I guess I should say, and the game clocks runs to zeros then the game would be over????

It is not about recognizing it....they must, if there is any doubt, wait to see if it hits the rim or not. And once it misses the rim, the subsequent whistle stops the game clock...no backing up.

It is about when the violation is defined to have occurred.

In the NBA, the violation is effectively defined to have occured when the horn sounds if an airborne try doesn't subsequently hit the rim....and the clock is brought back to the point of the violation.

In the NCAA, the violation is defined to occur the when the ball misses the rim....not when the horn sounds....and the clock remains.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

To me and the background with which I've been taught, this doesn't make sense to me to allow a team more than their allotted time in a possession.

The question that you need to ask is what are they supposed to do within that alloted time? And what constitutes the "time"?

In the NCAA, the team has 35 seconds to release a try that ultimately hits the rim.

In the NBA, the team has 24 seconds to hit the rim.

Neither is more sensible than the other, just different.

You could ask the same question about why the throwin count stops on the release versus when the backcourt count stops on a pass to the frontcourt.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Is it possible that the NCAA uses this rule so that officials don't have to worry about knowing the time of possessions and also so they don't have to worry about resetting the clock to its appropriate time? It just makes it easier on the refs? I mean this in hopes of getting an honest answer, as I am not trying to be condescending as it sounds...

Most shot clock periods start while the game clock is running. It isn't really that easy to "know" the precise difference between the two without looking at the video or watching the clock when the shot clock buzzer sounds when we're talking about making adjustments that could be as precise as a few tenths of a second.

NBA has had video a bit longer than NCAA. In fact, I'd bet that of ALL the NCAA schools, courtside video is more uncommon than common.

[Nevadaref]

Well explained, Camron.
This entire thread demonstrates btaylor's complete ignorance of how the NCAA shot clock is to be administered. Frankly, I'm shocked that he has reached that level with such poor knowledge of a basic aspect of the game.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Well explained, Camron.
This entire thread demonstrates btaylor's complete ignorance of how the NCAA shot clock is to be administered. Frankly, I'm shocked envious that he has reached that level with such poor knowledge of a basic aspect of the game.

Fixed it for ya.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My point is that the guy is irresponsible. As long as he continues to accept NCAA assignments despite not knowing the rules at that level and not attempting to learn them, he makes the rest of us look bad.

Of course, he thinks that he is doing a wonderful job.

How do you know he's not doing a wonderful job? Apparently, he's doing pretty d*mn well. But you personally attacking someone is utterly ridiculous, that's not what we do in this profession. If you think every person who works NCAA basketball is a rule book guru you've got another thing coming. There is consistent misapplications of rules every night by the "big dogs." I've worked with NCAA Tournament officials and saved our butts because I knew something about the rules they didn't. BT answered a question regarding pro rules correctly then asked for clarification on the NCAA rules, sounds to me like he's doing what it takes to improve his rules knowlegde.

BT is not the one who makes officials look bad, guys like you are because of your superiority or perhaps inferiority complexes. I've never had a problem with anyone on this board, but I think your personal attacks are unfounded and do not represent what we as officials stand for.

Just my 2 cents, don't bother replying because I won't go any deeper on this topic...I've spoken my mind.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

...
if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

If a player launches the ball towards the rafters you could easily deem it not to be a shot attempt and kill the play with your whistle as soon as the shot clock expires.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If a player launches the ball towards the rafters you could easily deem it not to be a shot attempt and kill the play with your whistle as soon as the shot clock expires.

What are you going to do if it goes in?

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Most shot clock periods start while the game clock is running. It isn't really that easy to "know" the precise difference between the two without looking at the video or watching the clock when the shot clock buzzer sounds when we're talking about making adjustments that could be as precise as a few tenths of a second.

It usually isn't to difficult to get the game clock when a team first gains control. I work hard to check the game clock right when they gain team control (or when the ball is touched during a throw-in) in order to have a number in my head that I can use to fix the shot clock if it is accidentally reset when it shouldn't have been.

Or in this case lets say that I checked and the game clock was at 40.5 when they gained possession then I know that I can put 5.5 on the game clock if the team still has control when the shot clock expires and the game clock shows anything but 5.5. You could also go to play-by-play for information if for some reason you didn't get the game clock time at initial possession.

You could also check to see if someone at the table could write down the game clock (when you are under 2 minutes) every time the shot clock is set or reset. This way you have information that you could use as a backup to your memory

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

It usually isn't to difficult to get the game clock when a team first gains control. I work hard to check the game clock right when they gain team control (or when the ball is touched during a throw-in) in order to have a number in my head that I can use to fix the shot clock if it is accidentally reset when it shouldn't have been.

Or in this case lets say that I checked and the game clock was at 40.5 when they gained possession then I know that I can put 5.5 on the game clock if the team still has control when the shot clock expires and the game clock shows anything but 5.5. You could also go to play-by-play for information if for some reason you didn't get the game clock time at initial possession.

You could also check to see if someone at the table could write down the game clock (when you are under 2 minutes) every time the shot clock is set or reset. This way you have information that you could use as a backup to your memory

(Noting that we're talking about a difference of fractions of a second when the end of the game is near and the shot clock expires just before the game clock does expire or nearly expires.)

You're still left with your judgement of control vs. the shot-clock operator. The two of you could be off just a little...especially on a turnover or rebound. I'd say that if you're within a second or less at the end, the clock is probably not incorrect....just a difference in judgement. I'd only make a change if is obvious that they didn't operate it correctly.

Also consider that the shot clock operator only has to push a buton when they want to reset the clock upon seeing a team gain control (ignoring the the throwin case since it is the easy case). You, on the other hand, have to see at two events, the team gaining possession and the game clock. Your synchronization of the two events is likely to have more inaccuracy than the shot clock operator.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CLH

How do you know he's not doing a wonderful job? Apparently, he's doing pretty d*mn well. But you personally attacking someone is utterly ridiculous, that's not what we do in this profession. If you think every person who works NCAA basketball is a rule book guru you've got another thing coming. There is consistent misapplications of rules every night by the "big dogs." I've worked with NCAA Tournament officials and saved our butts because I knew something about the rules they didn't. BT answered a question regarding pro rules correctly then asked for clarification on the NCAA rules, sounds to me like he's doing what it takes to improve his rules knowlegde.

BT is not the one who makes officials look bad, guys like you are because of your superiority or perhaps inferiority complexes. I've never had a problem with anyone on this board, but I think your personal attacks are unfounded and do not represent what we as officials stand for.

Just my 2 cents, don't bother replying because I won't go any deeper on this topic...I've spoken my mind.

CLH,
I did NOT attack btaylor personally. I strongly criticized his lack of rules knowledge and his taking the court unprepared. I stated that doing so makes the officials who do put in the study time and strive so hard to administer the game properly "look bad." In other words I criticized his ACTION (or his lack of action). I said nothing about him personally.
YOU are the one who resorted to a petty personal attack. YOU are the one who started babbling about superiority and inferiority complexes.
I totally disagree with the sentiments you have expressed in this thread. I am well within my rights to tell btaylor that he needs to work far harder on his off court rules preparation. I'm sure that he can handle that criticism. Hopefully, he will become a better official for it too.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

CLH,
I did NOT attack btaylor personally.

Yes, you did.

Enough.

[Jay R]

Ben, I watched an NBA Dev game the other night on TV. Did you pay those announcers to say your name? It seemed that you were mentioned a few times. Good job.

Here's a question for you. I can see the logic in the NBA rule about putting back time after 24 second violation, however are you going to that every time. Are you going to add one second on the clock in the 1st quarter of the game? Or is this just used late in games where timing issues become more important?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Ben, I watched an NBA Dev game the other night on TV. Did you pay those announcers to say your name? It seemed that you were mentioned a few times. Good job.

Here's a question for you. I can see the logic in the NBA rule about putting back time after 24 second violation, however are you going to that every time. Are you going to add one second on the clock in the 1st quarter of the game? Or is this just used late in games where timing issues become more important?

Thanks for the compliment Jay R. Yeah when you've been in the league 3 years like I have and work a lot more games then say a 1st year, the announcers see you more and they also make a conscious effort to know your name. They are homers for the most part but also for the most part they are professionals.

To answer your question, yes we readjust the clock one second if it is obvious and to use an example of what I do: If I saw the possession begin right at 2:58 then I consider it 2:57, bc I don't know how much time was left on that 2:58 so 2:57 is close and gives the shot clock operator a little lag time. So if we have a shot clock violation and the clock reads 2:32, then I know they were off by at least 1 second and put it back up. In our game it isnt a big deal either, bc before the game at the 10 min mark before every game we go over to the table to make sure the clock operator is able to put up tenths of seconds and fix the clock with ease, so when we do hold up the game for it then it takes 2 seconds instead of like 2 min. like in some small college games I've worked where it takes the clock operator forever. Also, some scorers tables are so good that the play-by-play people work in tandem with the clock operator so if they know they ran 1 second over the time, they put the time back up without ever stopping the game. Some are just that good.

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by CLH

How do you know he's not doing a wonderful job?

Maccabi Tel Aviv Coach Gershon told me