When does travel occur?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

...
Another example comes to mind. Airborne player is fouled, then ball is released and swatted out of bounds by the defense. He should never get two shots.
This might have been a pass.

Guess you have given up on keeping this discussion halfway intelligent.

Anyway, I know A.R. 106 speaks specifically to the situation:

...when A1 voluntarily drops the ball before returning to the playing court and then touches the ball before
it is touched by another player, A1 has committed a travel violation since the pivot foot was lifted before the ball was released to start a dribble.
(Rule 4-37 and 4-70.4.b)


If there is no distinction why didn't they just say "...when A1 voluntarily drops the ball before returning to the playing court A1 has committed a travel violation since the pivot foot was lifted before the ball was released to start a dribble.
"?


I have a question. If A1 is standing with both feet firmly planted to the floor and A1 voluntarily drops the ball, and the ball is just bouncing in front of him, are you going to grant his HC a time-out during this period of time?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have a question. If A1 is standing with both feet firmly planted to the floor and A1 voluntarily drops the ball, and the ball is just bouncing in front of him, are you going to grant his HC a time-out during this period of time?

Not sure, I'd have to see the play.

Is the above player, after allowing the ball to "just bounce in front of him," allowed to catch the ball and then "voluntarily drop it" again? No. Because the first drop was the start of a dribble

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Not sure, I'd have to see the play.

Is the above player, after allowing the ball to "just bounce in front of him," allowed to catch the ball and then "voluntarily drop it" again? No. Because the first drop was the start of a dribble

Why are you not sure?


Player standing all alone, having not yet used a dribble, voluntarily drops the ball to the floor.

Are you granting a time-out?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Why are you not sure?


Player standing all alone, having not yet used a dribble, voluntarily drops the ball to the floor.

Are you granting a time-out?

If he is standing all alone, and the ball is bouncing beside him, why not?
Yes, grant the timeout.

[Adam]

Look, my point is simple, but let me start by stating I agree with Nevada that the rules support is there if you want to call this violation prior to A1 retouching the ball. Whether the drop is a dribble or not is entirely up to the official's judgment.

That said, I will never call this before A1 retouches it. Players are smart, and this is one rule they tend to know. If it's really a dribble, he'll show you by continuing the dribble. If it's a pass, he'll show you by purposefully avoiding the ball; likely boxing out his opponent at the same time to give a teammate time to get to the pass.

Let me change the play slightly.

A1 goes airborne for a shot, realizing it's about to get eaten by a young Dikembe, he throws the ball towards and empty corner of the court. He then proceeds to follow it, where for a few seconds, he's the only player in reach of the ball. You calling the violation if he doesn't touch it?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Players are smart, and this is one rule they tend to know.

Do they? What is the rule? Isn't that what we are debating now?

If it's really a dribble, he'll show you by continuing the dribble. If it's a pass, he'll show you by purposefully avoiding the ball; likely boxing out his opponent at the same time to give a teammate time to get to the pass.

In my opinion, the "passer" purposely avoiding the ball etc. is not what makes it a pass.

Let me change the play slightly.

A1 goes airborne for a shot, realizing it's about to get eaten by a young Dikembe, he throws the ball towards and empty corner of the court. He then proceeds to follow it, where for a few seconds, he's the only player in reach of the ball. You calling the violation if he doesn't touch it?

In this case, no. Throwing the ball toward an empty corner of the court bears no resemblance to the player simply dropping the ball to the floor.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Do they? What is the rule? Isn't that what we are debating now?

The rule is the player can't start a dribble after jumping; players know this or they'd attempt it more. I can't remember any players actually attempting to start a dribble after jumping; not that it hasn't happened, just that to say it's rare is to overstate its frequency.

Originally Posted by just another ref

In my opinion, the "passer" purposely avoiding the ball etc. is not what makes it a pass.

Why not? We have to base it on something, and this meets the common sense test.

Originally Posted by just another ref

In this case, no. Throwing the ball toward an empty corner of the court bears no resemblance to the player simply dropping the ball to the floor.

How is it different? In both plays, you have a player purposefully putting the ball where only he has the ability to touch it first and no teammate is in the immediate vicinity. How is it different?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is standing all alone, and the ball is bouncing beside him, why not?
Yes, grant the timeout.

I wouldn't, but it has nothing to do with your decision on the pass/dribble situation. At most, this would be an interrupted dribble, IMO. It may be right next to him, but if he's allowing multiple bounces between touches, he's not in control of that ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

..... if he's allowing multiple bounces between touches, he's not in control of that ball.

This is why I originally said I'd have to see the play, but I don't know why the multiple bounce would automatically mean no control. What if the dribbler raises both hands to make the timeout signal? About the time you see it, the ball is making a second bounce, still right beside the dribbler. You won't grant the timeout here unless the dribbler touches the ball again?

At most, this would be an interrupted dribble, IMO.

For the purpose of the discussion at hand, an interrupted dribble is still a dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is why I originally said I'd have to see the play, but I don't know why the multiple bounce would automatically mean no control. What if the dribbler raises both hands to make the timeout signal? About the time you see it, the ball is making a second bounce, still right beside the dribbler. You won't grant the timeout here unless the dribbler touches the ball again?

In this situation, I agree. I'm not saying it's automatic, either, just a rule of thumb I use to determine, for example, whether a dribbler is in control when he steps out of bounds.

Originally Posted by just another ref

For the purpose of the discussion at hand, an interrupted dribble is still a dribble.

Which is why i said "but it has nothing to do with your decision on the pass/dribble situation."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It may be right next to him, but if he's allowing multiple bounces between touches, he's not in control of that ball.

Rules citation? Is the ball "loose"? Has it gotten "away" from the dribbler?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rules citation? Is the ball "loose"? Has it gotten "away" from the dribbler?

I don't have one, so there. I'd say it's loose in this case, even though it's not away from the dribbler.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is standing all alone, and the ball is bouncing beside him, why not?
Yes, grant the timeout.

I'll make this a little more realistic b/c my last scenario was strictly an unrealistic hypothetical.

A1 all by his lonesome in the backcourt. He lifts his pivot foot to step into a pass for A2 who is 20 ft ahead of him. A1 realizes A2 is not looking so instead voluntarily drops the ball.

Based on your previous posts you are immediately calling a travel, correct?

[Jay R]

I had e-mailed our national interpreter in Canada and his answer corresponds to the vast majority of responses here: no travel until it is touched again by the player.

I kicked it in the game but I will remember it next time.

[Camron Rust]

The actual violation occurs when the ball is released/dropped (releasing the ball on a dribble after lifting the pivot). That is all the rules support. However, whether it is a dribble or not can't be determined until the next person touches the ball....same person, dribble; different person, pass.