Coming in on partners call

[fullor30]

Can't remember game this weekend, might have been Pittsburgh/Xavier. A1 passes to A2 near C on sideline. It is clearly off of A2 as B1 has the C screened. C blows and gives ball to A, thinking B tipped it. Lead comes running over, gives info and C changes his call, B's ball.

It clearly was right call yet it was right in front of A coach who went ballistic.

I've had a two day discussion with ref friend, who along with two other refs on his trading floor, said they wouldn't come in to change it which I think is dead wrong, yet how far do we take this? This has been discussed in old threads and has some gray area to it. We've all seen from a far, a partners call that we just know is wrong and yet,at least I do, feel he saw something I didn't, even though I feel 100% about it. That said, the variables of the game,score, all come into play. I've told my friend in the past that I don't want him coming over, I'll live with my call. Of course I'm not doing a second round NCAA men's game on national television. Those that saw the play will probably agree the call needed to be changed as it was clearly obvious.

Obviously, it's been pregamed that if non-calling official is coming over, there is no doubt.

Curious on thoughts.

[Raymond]

In this particular situation is was probably pre-gamed or assumed. All 3 officials work extensive SEC schedules so they are familar with each other.

[Jurassic Referee]

You don't come in to change the call. You come in to give your partner your info as to what you saw. Then it's up to the original caller to decide what to do. If he is sure he had the call right, he'll say "thanks but no thanks". If he has doubt, he'll go with you. I remember that play and that's just about what happened imo.

OOB calls aren't judgment calls like fouls. We gotta try to get every single one of those calls right. And in a tournament like this, missing a key OOB call as an official could mean watching the next round of games on tv.

That is one call that absolutely has to be pre-gamed as to helping each other out.

Btw, as for the coach going ballistic, he had to. I think that it's some kinda prerequisite in the coach's manual.

[Nevadaref]

I recall the play quite well. There was 15.9 seconds left in the game. Xavier was inbounding following a 3pt goal by Pitt and leading 69-66. The pass was made towards the Pitt bench and was tipped by the Pitt defender. It went OOB on the sideline into the Pitt bench. The C, Antonio Petty, came in from near the end of the scorer's table with a strong signal in favor of Pitt. John Cahill then came over from the Trail position on the end line and spoke with Petty, who changed his call and pointed the other way.

Cahill got the call right, and in my opinion it will cause him to advance to next weekend.

[rockyroad]

There was another game on Sunday where the exact opposite happened. Call was made, partner ran in and gave info, calling official (I think it was the T) hit his whistle and pointed again - the same direction he had pointed before.

All you can do is provide information. If partner wants to change call, that's up to him/her. My personal take on this is that I do not go running in, tooting my whistle 5 or 6 times. I tell my partners in pregame that if I have info for them, I will take a step or two towards them and make eye contact. If they then ask me, I will go in and give the info. If they don't want my info, they either shake their head at me or don't make eye contact. And away we go...

[bradfordwilkins]

I think if you have 100% knowledge, no question, absolute knowledge, you have to go to your partner and get the call right.

If you have anything less than the above, let him have it.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You don't come in to change the call. You come in to give your partner your info as to what you saw. Then it's up to the original caller to decide what to do. If he is sure he had the call right, he'll say "thanks but no thanks". If he has doubt, he'll go with you. I remember that play and that's just about what happened imo.

OOB calls aren't judgment calls like fouls. We gotta try to get every single one of those calls right. And in a tournament like this, missing a key OOB call as an official could mean watching the next round of games on tv.

That is one call that absolutely has to be pre-gamed as to helping each other out.

Btw, as for the coach going ballistic, he had to. I think that it's some kinda prerequisite in the coach's manual.

Brain fart regarding changing call wording...........of course

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

There was another game on Sunday where the exact opposite happened. Call was made, partner ran in and gave info, calling official (I think it was the T) hit his whistle and pointed again - the same direction he had pointed before.

All you can do is provide information. If partner wants to change call, that's up to him/her. My personal take on this is that I do not go running in, tooting my whistle 5 or 6 times. I tell my partners in pregame that if I have info for them, I will take a step or two towards them and make eye contact. If they then ask me, I will go in and give the info. If they don't want my info, they either shake their head at me or don't make eye contact. And away we go...

I like that Rock.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Can't remember game this weekend, might have been Pittsburgh/Xavier. A1 passes to A2 near C on sideline. It is clearly off of A2 as B1 has the C screened. C blows and gives ball to A, thinking B tipped it. Lead comes running over, gives info and C changes his call, B's ball.

It clearly was right call yet it was right in front of A coach who went ballistic.

You need to fix so much in your scenario.
If you are considering the inbounding side to be Team A, by your labeling, then the bench and coach who was complaining was B.
The pass was clearly tipped by B1, and A2 had the C screened.
The C initially gave the ball to Team B, thinking that A2 tipped it or that no one had touched the pass.
It was the TRAIL who came over and informed the C that he needed to change his call, and he then awarded the ball to Team A.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I recall the play quite well. There was 15.9 seconds left in the game. Xavier was inbounding following a 3pt goal by Pitt and leading 69-66. The pass was made towards the Pitt bench and was tipped by the Pitt defender. It went OOB on the sideline into the Pitt bench. The C, Antonio Petty, came in from near the end of the scorer's table with a strong signal in favor of Pitt. John Cahill then came over from the Trail position on the end line and spoke with Petty, who changed his call and pointed the other way.

Cahill got the call right, and in my opinion it will cause him to advance to next weekend.

Exactly.

No one will remember that the C called one way only to have the T provide info to get it right....and they did get it right. The replays clearly showed that they got it right.

If they didn't get it right and Pitt made a 3 pointer to tie and eventually won, it may have become the most talked about call of the weekend....it wasn't even a close call, the C was just not in the right spot to see it (and was probably in as good of a spot as they could have been...closer wouldn't have improved the angle).


Great teamwork.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You need to fix so much in your scenario.
If you are considering the inbounding side to be Team A, by your labeling, then the bench and coach who was complaining was B.
The pass was clearly tipped by B1, and A2 had the C screened.
The C initially gave the ball to Team B, thinking that A2 tipped it or that no one had touched the pass.
It was the TRAIL who came over and informed the C that he needed to change his call, and he then awarded the ball to Team A.

You're probably correct, I don't recall particulars. I'd be bad identifying someone in a police lineup.

So, in keeping with the spirit of the thread, I'll change my call.

[zeedonk]

Interesting discussion- I attended a D1 game worked by a friend of mine who has been working with younger (less experienced) HS officials when the same situation occurred. He was T and L had an OOB call. T didn't hit the whistle at all, just quickly ran to L to say he had 100% knowledge that ball should go the other way. L nodded his head, T went back to his position and L stayed with his call.

What my friend has been preaching to us was to 1- get the call right 2- in this situation, don't give the whistle a workout, just come in to your partner and tell him/her you have 100% knowledge that the call should go the other way and back off and let partner change his mind or not and 3- we are not coming in to partner unless you are 100% sure.

This leads to #4- if partner chooses to stay with his call, well, then, that's all you can do and your *** is covered if your cadet supervisor, HS assignor, college assignor or NCAA tourney observer is watching intently.... I wonder what points are given to the official who comes in with definite knowledge and is refused and the play was wrong... does he advance over the the partner who stays with his call? (I'm sure that's not the only criteria, but it might have a lot to say about the overall performance evaluation, no?)

Z

[Texas Aggie]

You don't come in to change the call. You come in to give your partner your info as to what you saw. Then it's up to the original caller to decide what to do.

I disagree. We pregame it, but if you come in on me, we ARE changing the call. We're not going to debate it, we aren't going to ask "did you see the whole play" or some other nonsense, we are simply changing the call. Now, whoever made the original call is the one who is going to change it by blowing their whistle, pointing a different direction, and verbally indicating the color jersey who now gets the ball. DO NOT come in with the change -- the calling official will make the change. And he WILL make the change. After that, like it or not, he deals with the coaches but the other official should assist in that if possible.

There's no rational alternative. What's the point of going in if not to get the call correct? You know from pregame that you aren't (or I'm not) coming in unless we are 110% sure we are correct. This "give him information" stuff doesn't work. What information? "The ball went off red; its white's ball." Anything short of that, we aren't coming in because we are going to trust that our partner got it right -- that he might have seen something we didn't. Its unreasonable for you to come to me with 110% correct information and for me to tell you "I got this" or to MYOB.

This is easier than a lot of people make it out to be, but you MUST pregame this. Plus, you association needs to get an understanding of how to handle this.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I disagree. We pregame it, but if you come in on me, we ARE changing the call. We're not going to debate it, we aren't going to ask "did you see the whole play" or some other nonsense, we are simply changing the call. Now, whoever made the original call is the one who is going to change it by blowing their whistle, pointing a different direction, and verbally indicating the color jersey who now gets the ball. DO NOT come in with the change -- the calling official will make the change. And he WILL make the change. After that, like it or not, he deals with the coaches but the other official should assist in that if possible.

There's no rational alternative. What's the point of going in if not to get the call correct? You know from pregame that you aren't (or I'm not) coming in unless we are 110% sure we are correct. This "give him information" stuff doesn't work. What information? "The ball went off red; its white's ball." Anything short of that, we aren't coming in because we are going to trust that our partner got it right -- that he might have seen something we didn't. Its unreasonable for you to come to me with 110% correct information and for me to tell you "I got this" or to MYOB.

This is easier than a lot of people make it out to be, but you MUST pregame this. Plus, you association needs to get an understanding of how to handle this.

No. There are a number of possibilities where each official not being able to see the entire play....for example, double tips in different areas of the court...each official sees one and only one. Get to gether, share information, get it right.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

We pregame it, but if you come in on me, we ARE changing the call. We're not going to debate it, we aren't going to ask "did you see the whole play" or some other nonsense, we are simply changing the call.

There's no rational alternative.

Plus, your association needs to get an understanding of how to handle this.

Iow one official's opinion will always take precedence over his partner(s), no matter what. No discussion at all about a double tip, etc? And you think that's rational?

You must have a pile of very insecure officials in your association; people not very confident in their own ability.

Good luck with that. It's tied with the stoopidest local mechanic that I've ever read about. Not only that, that procedure also directly contradicts NFHS rule 2-6.

You're always a team out there.