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Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 03:37pm
Raida357
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Making a call in your partners area.

My regular partner recently worked a F/JV doubleheader with a different official. The conference assignor and an evaluator were present to rate the Varsity crew, but they also watched the JV game. The only major issue the evaluator had was that my partner made a foul call on a play in the other officials area of responsibility. Here is the play:

My partner was trail on a fast break by Team A, just as A1 jumped for a lay-up attempt, B1 grabbed his jersey from behind. The other official had no angle and was completely blocked out by A1. My partner made the call. Neither coach had an issue with the call or the fact that my partner made it.

After the game, the evaluator said that an official should never make a call outside their area of responsibility. Do the veteran officials agree? I understand the importance of watching the play in your area and not tracking the ball, but there are some situations where you see something obvious outside your area. Don't we have an obligation to call a foul/violation if we see it? Just wondering what others think.
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Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 03:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raida357
My regular partner recently worked a F/JV doubleheader with a different official. The conference assignor and an evaluator were present to rate the Varsity crew, but they also watched the JV game. The only major issue the evaluator had was that my partner made a foul call on a play in the other officials area of responsibility. Here is the play:

My partner was trail on a fast break by Team A, just as A1 jumped for a lay-up attempt, B1 grabbed his jersey from behind. The other official had no angle and was completely blocked out by A1. My partner made the call. Neither coach had an issue with the call or the fact that my partner made it.

After the game, the evaluator said that an official should never make a call outside their area of responsibility. Do the veteran officials agree? I understand the importance of watching the play in your area and not tracking the ball, but there are some situations where you see something obvious outside your area. Don't we have an obligation to call a foul/violation if we see it? Just wondering what others think.
DID HE GET THE CALL RIGHT??? I'm fine with somebody reaching in my area as long as they get the call right. If it was something I was choosing to pass on, meaning in my judgement the contact wasn't sufficient enough to warrant air in the whistle, then I will tell my partner that in the dressing room.

TRUST YOUR PARTNER.... That not only means trust your partner and let him have his own third of the floor, but trust your partner that if he "reaches" then he must've have seen something that need to be called and I missed it.
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Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 06:58pm
Raida357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTheRef
DID HE GET THE CALL RIGHT???
Yeah, B1 grabbed the jersey from behind, the other official was just blocked out and didn't see the hold.
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Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 08:01pm
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Trail Help ???

This season, our local interpreter has encouraged the trail to help the lead in similar situations as described above.
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Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 10:08pm
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Had this happen in a Regional Final last night. On a FT, I am C. Close violation (entering early on her shot) by shooter, I pass on the whistle........then a tweet comes from trail and a no good signal on the make.......he calls the violation. Anyone ever have this one happen?
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Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 10:12pm
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yuh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raida357
After the game, the evaluator said that an official should never make a call outside their area of responsibility.
.. and at that point one's heart sank.

Get the call right would be my overriding concern here.
As a fledgling first year I have had a few instances that seem appropriate. Here are two that contrast:

1)In a girls JV game, I'm lead on an a endline inbounds play in the back court.
My partner is at one end, and I am at the other. No press.

Ball is inbounded, player is dribbling the ball in the back court towards the front court. Partner is practically parallel to the dribbler, looking up the court. For some strange girl-jv-player-brain-fart reason, dribbler picks up her dribble, starts dribbling again, then gets all flustered. Partner is oblivious. I blow my whistle from 70 feet away. Partner was just distracted, looking at the clock, whatever. He had no reason to believe this player would screw things up.

It had to be called.

2) Just a week ago I'm working a cyo game. I'm lead. Near endline, player A1 advances towards the basket from the corner. The play is right in front of me. B1 moves to stop drive. I have legal guarding position, slight contact between the two, A1 starts to retreat. No call.

From a far off place in the gym comes, "TWEET". Partner has a block from 45 feet away. Now, I'm not obsessed with my area/ your area, but this has happened a couple of times in the game. No worries.

---

So, in play #1 I feel that I'm making a 'save' for the sake of the game and our credibility.

In play #2 I feel like partner is making a call that I have clearly passed on. Partner is making a call that is right in front of me, when there was plenty of action in the key that they should have been focusing on.

Thats all I'll add. Again, fledgling.
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Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 11:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raida357
My regular partner recently worked a F/JV doubleheader with a different official. The conference assignor and an evaluator were present to rate the Varsity crew, but they also watched the JV game. The only major issue the evaluator had was that my partner made a foul call on a play in the other officials area of responsibility. Here is the play:

My partner was trail on a fast break by Team A, just as A1 jumped for a lay-up attempt, B1 grabbed his jersey from behind. The other official had no angle and was completely blocked out by A1. My partner made the call. Neither coach had an issue with the call or the fact that my partner made it.

After the game, the evaluator said that an official should never make a call outside their area of responsibility. Do the veteran officials agree? I understand the importance of watching the play in your area and not tracking the ball, but there are some situations where you see something obvious outside your area. Don't we have an obligation to call a foul/violation if we see it? Just wondering what others think.


This is not a situation of the T going out of his area to make a call. The T is supposed to get this call every time. The jersey grab from behind is a natural for the T to call. The assignor needs to smacked upside the head with an officials mechanics manual. If I was the evaluator, I would be upset if the T did NOT make this call.

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Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 12:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
This is not a situation of the T going out of his area to make a call. The T is supposed to get this call every time. The jersey grab from behind is a natural for the T to call. The assignor needs to smacked upside the head with an officials mechanics manual. If I was the evaluator, I would be upset if the T did NOT make this call.

MTD, Sr.
Exactly. Those evaluators that think a jersey grab on a fast break is better uncalled than called by someone he thinks is "out of his area" is not suited for evaluating officials.

There's a reason the T/C hustles back on a fast break, after all.
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Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 12:27am
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Your evaluator and/or assignor are ALWAYS right when you're talking to them. "Yes, I see your point. Okay, uh-huh... right.... thank you."

BUT you should also ALWAYS pre-game how you and your partner are going to work together to pick up these kinds of situations. Some partners are the "Stay out of my area. Period" types. Then you stay out of their area. You get in, get done, get out. Most partners want to work together to get the call right. A gotta-get call that your partner is screened on, well, you call it. Even when you know your evaluator is watching and will disapprove. Then if the eval says, "But I talked to you about that two weeks ago." you say, "Yea, I know. I'll keep working on it. Thanks."

And then you keep pre-gaming with partners. Eventually, the eval will talk to you both together and the partner will say, "I was really glad he caught that. I was screened out."
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Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 08:17am
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Not Bad For A New Guy ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
Get the call right would be my overriding concern here. As a fledgling first year I have had a few instances that seem appropriate... It had to be called.
ca_rumperee: Well put, especially for a new guy.

This is always part of my pregame:
Stay In Your Primary, It Must Be Obvious To Come Out Of Your Primary
Respect each other's area. Seldom should have four eyes on the ball. It must be obvious to come out of your primary. We’re not going to have too many double whistles if we are doing this right.

I like the example you gave of the illegal dribble, however, some officials would say that you should have missed that call because you should have been watching the other nine players on your end of the floor. It's a fine line between making the obvious call outside your primary coverage area and "poaching". I have heard others on this Forum describe an obvious, outside your primary, correct call, as being the one where everyone in the gym, players, coaches, table, fans, yourself, in other words, everyone in the gym, except your partner, sees the violation, and you for whatever reason, maybe by "looking through" your primary, see it, then you must call it.
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Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 09:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
I like the example you gave of the illegal dribble, however, some officials would say that you should have missed that call because you should have been watching the other nine players on your end of the floor.
Yeah, me, if you're blowing that one from the endline on something that's 70' away around the far foul line.
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Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 10:15am
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Consensus ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
I have heard others on this Forum describe an obvious, outside your primary, correct call, as being the one where everyone in the gym, players, coaches, table, fans, yourself, in other words, everyone in the gym, except your partner, sees the violation, and you for whatever reason, maybe by "looking through" your primary, see it, are 100% sure, then you must call it.
Jurassic Referee: Could you live with this statement, with my 100% sure edit?

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:26am.
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Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Jurassic Referee: Could you live with this statement, with my 100% sure edit?
Live with it? I agree with it. I just don't know relevant it is on something that's 70' away on an 84' long court. You're usually talking about a gotta-get that comes up either in a half-court situation or in transition where the officials are just about where they should be.
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Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 10:40am
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Jurassic, he is asking you to validate ball-watching - notice the "looking through" part. Actually that is what this subject is about most of the time. We all know there are plays where someone is blocked out and have no way of seeing an obvious play. We should also understand that Jurassic is talking about someone who is probably looking past players to watch the ball all the way on the other end of the court. There is a difference.
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Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 01:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
Jurassic, he is asking you to validate ball-watching - notice the "looking through" part. Actually that is what this subject is about most of the time. We all know there are plays where someone is blocked out and have no way of seeing an obvious play. We should also understand that Jurassic is talking about someone who is probably looking past players to watch the ball all the way on the other end of the court. There is a difference.
No, I don't think that Billy is asking me to validate ball watching. Unless I'm reading Billy wrong, and I sureasheck might be, he's talking about something that comes up in my field of vision outside of my primary but still within...say... a half-court that's so obvious that I gotta go get it. I agree with doing something like that. That's a big difference from ball watching.

Rumpy though now....he was looking for validation for ball watching in his example. Watching a dribbler under no pressure 70' down the court is ball-watching imo. I doubt very much whether I'd even notice something that far away--that's from one endline to the far foul line. And at that distance, I doubt that I could be 100% sure of anything that I noticed to ever warrant making a call anyway.
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