over rule partners call...

[BEAREF]

Is there a time when you feel it is acceptable to over rule your partners call? Or do you just offer your view and let him make the decision to change his call? That's just what I did and he didn't change the call even though it was not right.

The situation is base loaded with two outs in the bottom of the 7th. The home team is behind 3-2. A routine ground ball to the shortstop but the throw to first was high causing the first baseman to jump. When he landed his foot was a good 8-10 inches to the 2nd base side of the bag. This was very obvious to me as the PU and also the first base coach and the B/R. My partner called "out". Needless to say the first base coach went balistic and asked my partner to ask for some help from me, which he did. I told him exactly what I saw and told him that it was up to him to change he call unless he was sure of what he saw. He didn't change the call...game over...it was a quick exit to the parking lot.

[SanDiegoSteve]

You waited to be asked for help, conferred with your partner, told him what you saw, and he didn't change the call. He should have came to you before making the call if he wasn't sure. It's his call, so if he doesn't change it, he doesn't change it. He should have told the coach he wasn't going to ask for help, if he wasn't open to having it reversed. He succeeded in making you look bad. Perhaps you should have said, "it up to you to do the right thing and change the call." Maybe he would have gotten the point then.

[dokeeffe]

Your partner did the unforgiveable! Forget that he shouldn't call an out without seeing it. Forget that he should have come to you for help before he made the call if he wasn't sure. The fact is he threw you under the bus by making it look like you agreed with his call!

I know there is never going to be solid agreement amoung umpires about going to you partner behind the plate for help AFTER you have made a call - but please - your partner could have pretended to be a man and gone with your call after coming to you.

I'll never understand why it is so hard for field umpires in B or C who are unsure about a pulled foot, to simply point at their partner and say, "did he have the bag!" BEFORE making any call. By the same token why is it so hard, when they are sure of their call, to simply say, "no coach I'm not going to my partner. It's my call and the batter/runner is out!"

[RPatrino]

Did your partner "see" F3's foot off the base?

Secondly, if you are using proper mechanics you should never miss seeing a pulled foot from B and C.

[David B]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

Is there a time when you feel it is acceptable to over rule your partners call? Or do you just offer your view and let him make the decision to change his call? That's just what I did and he didn't change the call even though it was not right.

The situation is base loaded with two outs in the bottom of the 7th. The home team is behind 3-2. A routine ground ball to the shortstop but the throw to first was high causing the first baseman to jump. When he landed his foot was a good 8-10 inches to the 2nd base side of the bag. This was very obvious to me as the PU and also the first base coach and the B/R. My partner called "out". Needless to say the first base coach went balistic and asked my partner to ask for some help from me, which he did. I told him exactly what I saw and told him that it was up to him to change he call unless he was sure of what he saw. He didn't change the call...game over...it was a quick exit to the parking lot.

You did the right thing by not saying anything unless asked; however, the bottom line is that your partner had terrible positioning or he would be able to see a pulled foot, etc.,

The fact that you told him what you saw and he ignored it even further indicts your partner.

A lazy official who just don't care.

Thanks
David

[Thom Coste]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

Is there a time when you feel it is acceptable to over rule your partners call? Or do you just offer your view and let him make the decision to change his call? That's just what I did and he didn't change the call even though it was not right.

The situation is base loaded with two outs in the bottom of the 7th. The home team is behind 3-2. A routine ground ball to the shortstop but the throw to first was high causing the first baseman to jump. When he landed his foot was a good 8-10 inches to the 2nd base side of the bag. This was very obvious to me as the PU and also the first base coach and the B/R. My partner called "out". Needless to say the first base coach went balistic and asked my partner to ask for some help from me, which he did. I told him exactly what I saw and told him that it was up to him to change he call unless he was sure of what he saw. He didn't change the call...game over...it was a quick exit to the parking lot.

Hmmm. Two outs, home team down by one, the only chance to win is to score two (or score one and go into extra innings). Runners are all off with the crack of the bat. If you were watching the play at first, who was watching the runners touch the plate and third base, respectively?

My opinion, you should have had nothing to contribute to him. His call, let him make it. You should have been busy doing your own job. If you weren't, you messed up.

[archangel]

Good call, Thom!!

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by Thom Coste

Hmmm. Two outs, home team down by one, the only chance to win is to score two (or score one and go into extra innings). Runners are all off with the crack of the bat. If you were watching the play at first, who was watching the runners touch the plate and third base, respectively?

My opinion, you should have had nothing to contribute to him. His call, let him make it. You should have been busy doing your own job. If you weren't, you messed up.

I don't know that I agree. The chance of a runner missing home plate when there is no play on him is virtually incalcuable, whereas, a play at first where you're partner may need help on a tag, pulled foot or basepath violation is, relatively speaking, likely. Also chances are very good that the runners touched their respective bases prior to the throw reaching 1st base anyway and the PU could have accomplished both tasks.
If r2 had cleared F5 and then BEAREF looked to first, I think he did good.
I certainly would not be making clear cut statements like 'you messed up'

Besides, he did let him make the call. He didn't offer anything until asked and then only told him what he saw, BU was clearly in err here, not the PU.

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by NIump50

I don't know that I agree. The chance of a runner missing home plate when there is no play on him is virtually incalcuable, whereas, a play at first where you're partner may need help on a tag, pulled foot or basepath violation is, relatively speaking, likely. Also chances are very good that the runners touched their respective bases prior to the throw reaching 1st base anyway and the PU could have accomplished both tasks.
If r2 had cleared F5 and then BEAREF looked to first, I think he did good.
I certainly would not be making clear cut statements like 'you messed up'

Besides, he did let him make the call. He didn't offer anything until asked and then only told him what he saw, BU was clearly in err here, not the PU.

I agree. In the two man mechanics, the emphasis is where the "most likely" play is going to happen. Indeed, in this situation, 99 out of 100 times, there is going to be an out, but the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home. I see WAY more pulled foots at 1st than I see runners missing 3rd and home! PERIOD!!!

You did the right thing. Your partner is a moron if he didn't change his call after asking what you seen, and you clearly had a better angle! I would ask my assignor to never assign me to another game with a guy that did that! Most likely, that kind of request would assure that he never again did a higher level game!

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by pdxblue

but the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home.

Horrible. And blatantantly untrue. The PU's primary responsibilities on this play according to every clinic I've ever attended or taught at, in 2 different baseball rulesets and 3 different softball rulesets, is the runners touching. Any BU worth enough to have a real uniform to wear should be able to see a pulled foot in 99.9% of the cases. I'm sure you, as PU, would have the opportunity to see more pulled feet at 1st than missed bases at home or 3rd on a play like this, but if you miss YOUR responsibility because you were covering for a BU who could not cover HIS responsibilities, it will be YOUR hide tanned if you are being reviewed that day.

There are calls that belong to both umpires. This situation is not one of them. Do your OWN job first.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Horrible. And blatantantly untrue. The PU's primary responsibilities on this play according to every clinic I've ever attended or taught at, in 2 different baseball rulesets and 3 different softball rulesets, is the runners touching. Any BU worth enough to have a real uniform to wear should be able to see a pulled foot in 99.9% of the cases. I'm sure you, as PU, would have the opportunity to see more pulled feet at 1st than missed bases at home or 3rd on a play like this, but if you miss YOUR responsibility because you were covering for a BU who could not cover HIS responsibilities, it will be YOUR hide tanned if you are being reviewed that day.

There are calls that belong to both umpires. This situation is not one of them. Do your OWN job first.

I'm not arguing the mechanic, but let's go to reality.

1. I'm not umpiring to please the evaluator, rather to arbitrate a fair game. As this case proves, it's much more likely fairness will be served with 4 eyes on first.
When was the last time you had an appeal at home plate for an uncontested run?
2. Bases loaded 2 outs bottom of 7th. Tell me the evaluators eyes are going to be on PU not on the play at first.
3. When evaluator sees the blatant miss at first, then sees BU ask for help and your response is "sorry didn't see it, had my nose pointed to home making sure the runner didn't miss that wide open plate." Tell me the evaluator is going to say "great job"

And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home. Every other eye in the park is going to be locked on to first. So even if he misses the plate by an inch or two you'll be the only one knowing. In the meantime you can explain to the coach you didn't see the play, but be assured coach I know the staus of r3 and home plate. I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count.

[johnSandlin]

I have always believed in the mechanic of "putting a call on the record" first. If the crowd or the base runner look at you strange then go get help.

Never overule your partner without being asked for help first. it makes you and the whole crew look bad.

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Horrible. And blatantantly untrue. The PU's primary responsibilities on this play according to every clinic I've ever attended or taught at, in 2 different baseball rulesets and 3 different softball rulesets, is the runners touching. Any BU worth enough to have a real uniform to wear should be able to see a pulled foot in 99.9% of the cases. I'm sure you, as PU, would have the opportunity to see more pulled feet at 1st than missed bases at home or 3rd on a play like this, but if you miss YOUR responsibility because you were covering for a BU who could not cover HIS responsibilities, it will be YOUR hide tanned if you are being reviewed that day.

There are calls that belong to both umpires. This situation is not one of them. Do your OWN job first.

Thankfully, I am not working games with you!

[RPatrino]

As the PU, you can still watch runner's touch at 3rd and home, AND line up 1st base for pulled foot and swipes.

Simply, while on 1st base line extended, back up a little bit and widen your field of vision. You don't have to zero in on the bases and wait for the runners, all you do is watch the ball and glance at the runners.

It is a gross error, if as the PU, you neglect your responsibility to watch touch/tags of 3rd and home, bottom line.

[DG]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

Is there a time when you feel it is acceptable to over rule your partners call? Or do you just offer your view and let him make the decision to change his call? That's just what I did and he didn't change the call even though it was not right.

The situation is base loaded with two outs in the bottom of the 7th. The home team is behind 3-2. A routine ground ball to the shortstop but the throw to first was high causing the first baseman to jump. When he landed his foot was a good 8-10 inches to the 2nd base side of the bag. This was very obvious to me as the PU and also the first base coach and the B/R. My partner called "out". Needless to say the first base coach went balistic and asked my partner to ask for some help from me, which he did. I told him exactly what I saw and told him that it was up to him to change he call unless he was sure of what he saw. He didn't change the call...game over...it was a quick exit to the parking lot.

I think I would have a post game with the guy. Number 1, don't make a call you are not sure of. Ask me about a possible pulled foot before making a call. Number 2, if you call an out, and then ask me and I tell you I saw a pulled foot and you don't change your call that makes me look like a fool too, so don't bother to ask if you are not going to use the information I give you. If you follow rule Number 1 you will only be asking if F3 was on the bag because you already know the throw beat the runner.