Letting it get out of control

[stilllearning]

Just wondering what everybody thinks. Probably a vent but this one gets old.

Tonight A1 falls to the floor due to tough defense. Travel. She gets frustrated and slaps B5 in the leg as she is getting up. B5 feels it and gets frustrated and turns around and shoves A1 in the back. I call a technical on both of them. While I'm reporting Coach B wants to talk to both of us. "DO YOU KNOW WHY THAT HAPPENED?" I said, no and walked away. I'm so sick and tired of getting lectured about letting a game getting out of control and seeing officials somehow get blamed for the actions of frustrated kids.

Anybody else get frustrated with this one? Do we let games get out of control? Any thoughts on the subject? I guess it's possible for the refs to let a game get out of control but I've worked and seen hundreds and have yet to see it once. Kids get frustrated and they do stupid things. That's all there is to it. I guess it's March so it's been a long year.The vent's over. Thanks. I feel better. : >)

[VaTerp]

While I have seen games get "out of control" in large part due to incompetent officials, they are few and far between and ultimately the players are responsible for their own actions when things get out of hand.

What I really hate is when coaches say "you're gonna get my kids hurt." I did some 14U girls "league" games tonite and heard this from one coach and from a mother who is heavily involved with the AAU organization that runs this and other leagues throughout the year.

The mother's comment really agitated me. This is a competitive league where almost all of these girls will be playing HS ball next year and are relatively skilled so we let them play more than you would a regular 14 year old girls game. There was a loose ball situation that got very awkward with a couple of players hitting the ground. But there was no foul to be called whatsoever. Just players hustling and going for the ball. The mother is standing right by the table and says to me "somebody is gonna get hurt out there." I respond "there was nothing to call." She then says "it doesnt matter" to which I respond again "Ok, next time I'll just make something up."

The game after this one got much worse and I may share that story some other time. For now I'll just say that the more I officiate basketball the more I am reminded of how stupid and crazy SO many people are. Unreal.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by stilllearning

Just wondering what everybody thinks. Probably a vent but this one gets old.

Tonight A1 falls to the floor due to tough defense. Travel. She gets frustrated and slaps B5 in the leg as she is getting up. B5 feels it and gets frustrated and turns around and shoves A1 in the back. I call a technical on both of them. While I'm reporting Coach B wants to talk to both of us. "DO YOU KNOW WHY THAT HAPPENED?" I said, no and walked away. I'm so sick and tired of getting lectured about letting a game getting out of control and seeing officials somehow get blamed for the actions of frustrated kids.

Anybody else get frustrated with this one? Do we let games get out of control? Any thoughts on the subject? I guess it's possible for the refs to let a game get out of control but I've worked and seen hundreds and have yet to see it once. Kids get frustrated and they do stupid things. That's all there is to it. I guess it's March so it's been a long year.The vent's over. Thanks. I feel better. : >)

I do think there have been and are situations that when we look back on it, we could have done this or done that better and could have ran the game better or managed it a little better.

An example for me would be during a game this season, we had Team A commit two hard (close to flagrant 1, intentional) fouls. They were real close. Right after the 2nd hard foul I started thinking to myself, "should we have reeled this in now and called that 2nd one a flagrant 1 (intentional)??" But I told myself no. Well just a little while later Team B commits a borderline foul as well and I thought it would be very unfair for me to call this hard foul a FF1 and not have called any of the last 2, in the other teams favor, a FF1. This is how my crew and I handled it... I stepped in the middle of the paint and said (Where my partners and all players could hear), "Guys I'm just letting you know, but if we have a another foul similar to the last 3 I'm calling it a flagrant foul." They squabbled a little bit and I just told them thats how it is. Needless to say I think we kept the game reeled in pretty well. We had 6 Ts and an ejection for a Flagrant Foul Penalty 2, but all stayed under control.

In your situation, if that girl took a serious "swipe" at her as you said call a foul and send a message that it won't be tolerated. I would venture to say if you called that smack to the leg, as subtle and non-advantageous as it is, then the other girl doesn't retaliate like she does and you also send a message to the girl doing the smacking that you saw it and that it is enough!

Picking up first fouls in our game is very crucial, especially in very heated games, moments and situations. By seeing the first foul and calling it we can really diffuse a lot of emotions without even having to interact or involve ourselves in the situation. One hit of the whistle and a verbal, "cut it out you two!" or yelling to your partners where everyone can hear, "Jim, John... Watch 22 and 32!" can do a whole lot of a good.

I don't blaming you for venting... Its the end of the season for most and this time of the year is when you and most teams are really frustrated and worn down. It definitely takes a toll on you. It's a great thing that we have an off-season.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Picking up first fouls in our game is very crucial, especially in very heated games, moments and situations.

I've been taught to extend that to the first three minutes. During the first three minutes it is possible, in a way, to set the tone for how the rest of the game is to be played.

Ignore stuff that goes on those first three minutes, you may find the fish you need to reel in is struggling more than the rod and reel you have in your hand can handle.

This could be taken wrongly, but you and I are, to a certain extent, in the behavior modification business out there. Contests I've seen that got out of control later on were often on that track from what was passed on earlier in the game.

I pregamed this all year when I was R, but had one partner earlier in the season who responded, "No, I don't do it that way. I let the kids set the tone and then I adapt to that. Let's let 'em play." No wonder this fellow official has numerous games that get out of control and gets yelled at a lot. He sets himself and his crew up for what he gets later.

That said, sometimes the wild card of emotions run amok can mess things up unexpectedly and in spite of the best efforts of the officiating crew. Those are the situations which sadden and sometimes shock me. But I guess that's why we get the big bucks.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I pregamed this all year when I was R, but had one partner earlier in the season who responded, "No, I don't do it that way. I let the kids set the tone and then I adapt to that. Let's let 'em play."

I agree with your partner's response. I think that officials who go out with the mindset to call it tight from the beginning make a huge mistake. They end up putting a couple of fouls on the best players, simply because these are the starters, which may not have been necessary. The game belongs to the players, not us. Choking the life out of the action makes the contest less enjoyable for everyone. I would have told you the same thing as that partner did, if you had espoused your 3-minute philosophy in our pregame.

I guess the games that I work are out of control.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I guess the games that I work are out of control.

No, I highly doubt that. My guess is you accomplish the same things in other effective ways. I'd bet you set a good tone for the game by your appearance, professionalism in captains' conference and meeting with the coaches, confidence at the start of the game. Those are also vital, effective ways to accomplish the same thing I was hoping to suggest. And I've seen guys who fit the image I have of you do so very well.
As to the "I like to let the players set the tone", I'd love to see your skills and aptitude on display when the tone they set early on isn't a good one. It's at that point that I've seen officials unable or unwilling to adjust to keep the landslide of chaos from falling in on them. Then again, I bet the way you take care of business carries out what needs to be done to establish the control spoken of in the original post.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

No, I highly doubt that. My guess is you accomplish the same things in other effective ways. I'd bet you set a good tone for the game by your appearance, professionalism in captains' conference and meeting with the coaches, confidence at the start of the game. Those are also vital, effective ways to accomplish the same thing I was hoping to suggest. And I've seen guys who fit the image I have of you do so very well.
As to the "I like to let the players set the tone", I'd love to see your skills and aptitude on display when the tone they set early on isn't a good one. It's at that point that I've seen officials unable or unwilling to adjust to keep the landslide of chaos from falling in on them. Then again, I bet the way you take care of business carries out what needs to be done to establish the control spoken of in the original post.

This is such a complimentary response to my previous post that I am ashamed. I can only take this opportunity to apologize for my prior crankiness.
While I did disagree with your stated position, I certainly could have phrased my response in a more respectful and hopefully discussion worthy manner. I'll aim for that in the future.
In summary, after about 15 years of doing this, I come down on the side of JR, Rich, and Rut. I believe that we need to allow some contact and not whistle everything in order for the game to flow and be enjoyable for the players and spectators. The stronger players and teams can handle it. The challenge is to recognize when the players are unable to deal with the level of contact that we are accustomed to permitting and to adjust and call those games tighter. I firmly believe that by over-calling the officials can ruin a game very quickly. It takes much longer for an under-called game to get out of control, so if the officials are sharp and can come in with a few timely whistles to keep the tempers in check, then the proper balance can be achieved.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree with your partner's response. I think that officials who go out with the mindset to call it tight from the beginning make a huge mistake. They end up putting a couple of fouls on the best players, simply because these are the starters, which may not have been necessary. The game belongs to the players, not us. Choking the life out of the action makes the contest less enjoyable for everyone. I would have told you the same thing as that partner did, if you had espoused your 3-minute philosophy in our pregame.

I guess the games that I work are out of control.

I think my answer is "it depends."

Super big game where the hype (deserved or not) was way up -- the first 5 minutes the players were sloppy, all over the place -- I passed on some contact early cause I wanted to let the game breathe (and because the advantage/disadvantage just wasn't that obvious either way). These were (and are) two very good teams (one of them could very well win the big division state title) with very talented players (at least 4-5 on the floor will play D-I hoops). The teams settled in, we still called almost 30 fouls, but we didn't choke the life out of the first few minutes. Matter of fact, I think we had 2 fouls the entire first quarter. The teams adjusted to the hype and settled in. We allowed that to happen. For me, the hype ended after I tossed the ball, but that's my job.

Recently I did another game where the teams were not very talented and decided to come out and challenge each other physically. It would've been a brawl had we adopted the same philosophy as we did in the earlier game. We actually went bonus both ways in the first quarter and probably had 25 fouls in the first half. Came out for the third quarter and we called 2 the entire quarter -- they adjusted to us.

I go into each game prepared to guide the game however I need to. It's how quickly *we* adjust, I'm convinced, that determines whether the game "goes off the rails."

[stilllearning]

I do think there have been and are situations that when we look back on it, we could have done this or done that better and could have ran the game better or managed it a little better.

*No doubt.

An example for me would be during a game this season, we had Team A commit two hard (close to flagrant 1, intentional) fouls. They were real close. Right after the 2nd hard foul I started thinking to myself, "should we have reeled this in now and called that 2nd one a flagrant 1 (intentional)??" But I told myself no. Well just a little while later Team B commits a borderline foul as well and I thought it would be very unfair for me to call this hard foul a FF1 and not have called any of the last 2, in the other teams favor, a FF1. This is how my crew and I handled it... I stepped in the middle of the paint and said (Where my partners and all players could hear), "Guys I'm just letting you know, but if we have a another foul similar to the last 3 I'm calling it a flagrant foul." They squabbled a little bit and I just told them thats how it is. Needless to say I think we kept the game reeled in pretty well. We had 6 Ts and an ejection for a Flagrant Foul Penalty 2, but all stayed under control.

*We've had games like this and still hear the mantra about letting it get out of control. You take are of the business and make the calls and somehow they still come up with the idea that it's the officials fault. But it's what we put up with and unfortunately will not change.

In your situation, if that girl took a serious "swipe" at her as you said call a foul and send a message that it won't be tolerated. I would venture to say if you called that smack to the leg, as subtle and non-advantageous as it is, then the other girl doesn't retaliate like she does and you also send a message to the girl doing the smacking that you saw it and that it is enough!

*It was bang bang. I was blowing for the first when the second happened.

Picking up first fouls in our game is very crucial, especially in very heated games, moments and situations. By seeing the first foul and calling it we can really diffuse a lot of emotions without even having to interact or involve ourselves in the situation. One hit of the whistle and a verbal, "cut it out you two!" or yelling to your partners where everyone can hear, "Jim, John... Watch 22 and 32!" can do a whole lot of a good.

I don't blaming you for venting... Its the end of the season for most and this time of the year is when you and most teams are really frustrated and worn down. It definitely takes a toll on you. It's a great thing that we have an off-season.

*And mine starts now. The honey-do list is long but I'll take it for awhile over this nonsense. Thanks to everybody for responding. It certainly is a good thing to talk about.

[jeffpea]

it's my opinion that 99% of the time, the problems that arise in games are the result of officials not blowing the whistle enough....the games that get out of control, the crazy sitautions that occur, and the resulting phone calls from assignors is becuase the officials didn't blow the whistle enough earlier in the game.

"blow the whistle and the players will adjust." - Hank Nichols (former NCAA Coordinator of Division 1 Men's Basketball Officials)

[deecee]

I am a staunch proponent of doing our job. Blow the whistle and its up the teams to adjust OR foul out.

10 years (and knock on wood) 0 ejections, 0 incidents. Plenty of T's though but train wrecks in our game dont just happen. You can see them coming a mile away and as a good official you should be aware of the health of the game you are doing and when needed corrective measures should be taken to avoid flare ups. Either a quick chat to potential problem players, maybe some quick fouls to ease the tension, double fouls. Send the message that you are there and you will deal with things that need to be dealt with in the swiftest severest action.

Or just call a coach a candypants and get eveyones mind off the game as they watch you and the coach throw down.

[Mark Padgett]

I had a 5th grade boys game yesterday in which A1 and B1 dived to the floor after a loose ball. Their shoulders bumped pretty hard but neither kid had an advantageous position over the other and neither one actually initiated the contact. The ball went OOB off A1 and I called it just as a violation. Coach A yelled, "Why wasn't that a foul?" I replied, "Because it was mutual combat, coach".

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I had a 5th grade boys game yesterday in which A1 and B1 dived to the floor after a loose ball. Their shoulders bumped pretty hard but neither kid had an advantageous position over the other and neither one actually initiated the contact. The ball went OOB off A1 and I called it just as a violation. Coach A yelled, "Why wasn't that a foul?" I replied, "Because it was mortal combat, coach".

Made it what I think you meant.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I had a 5th grade boys game yesterday in which A1 and B1 dived to the floor after a loose ball. Their shoulders bumped pretty hard but neither kid had an advantageous position over the other and neither one actually initiated the contact. The ball went OOB off A1 and I called it just as a violation. Coach A yelled, "Why wasn't that a foul?" I replied, "Because it was mutual combat, coach".

Are you sure you didn't mean Mortal Kombat (registered trademark)?

MTD, Sr.

[stilllearning]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

it's my opinion that 99% of the time, the problems that arise in games are the result of officials not blowing the whistle enough....the games that get out of control, the crazy sitautions that occur, and the resulting phone calls from assignors is becuase the officials didn't blow the whistle enough earlier in the game.

"blow the whistle and the players will adjust." - Hank Nichols (former NCAA Coordinator of Division 1 Men's Basketball Officials)

I guess I would flip what you're saying and say that 1% of the time it could be the officials fault. My thought is that the quote your referring to is talking about fouls other than the stuff we would call t's. There was nothing in the game I was working that would have led you to believe that A1 would fall down, get frustrated and slap the girls leg. If a kid "decides" to act out with something they know will get them a tech then that's their fault. Kids know better and know that if they shove another player during a dead ball that it will be a tech. Even if they themselves had just got shoved they know that if they respond it will be called. The kids are responsible for their behavior. Not us. But I need to hear all this because I could be off base with my thinking and don't want to stay there if I am. That's part of why I posted as I'm still learning. What do you think? Respectfully submitted.