"Letting Them Play..."

[tnsteele95]

Again, middle school games last night, two officials. Four games total, two JV two Varsity. It seemed as though both officials were content to let the kids play ball, which meant it was very physical. The crowd got a little rough, but seemed o.k. the first couple of games. As the night wore on, the officials just swallowed there whistles and didn't call anything except out of bounds. Kids were swinging elbows, pushing, traveling, just a very out of control situation which led to a few kids getting hurt and the crowd was absolutely out of control. After the game, I heard one official tell a paret, "We were just trying to let them play ball."

So here's my question, where do you draw the line between calling everything and letting them play? I'm just a rec league guy, but I've learned quickly that it's a safer bet just to call evrything the whole ball game. It may slow the pace, but there's a lot less blood.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tnsteele95

So here's my question, where do you draw the line between calling everything and letting them play? I'm just a rec league guy, but I've learned quickly that it's a safer bet just to call evrything the whole ball game. It may slow the pace, but there's a lot less blood.

There is not definitive answer to your question. I can say that I try to call and advantage/disadvantage game. It is hard to tell by what you are saying were the officials calling the game properly or just turning a blind eye to obvious violations and fouls. Also understand that calling middle school games can be a mixed bag and you do not see the same talent level that you would with older players. A lot of players fall for no good reason and parents and coaches want fouls and violations that are not really there. Also keep in mind that the officials (right or wrong) are not always the most experienced at that level either. Many veteran officials have moved on to other levels or have no desire to work those games (right or wrong) and it is also possible that the officials at this game did not have the grasp of calling the game properly. I am sure that was as much a factor as the other things I mentioned.

Peace

[Bearfanmike20]

I recently watched a JV girls game. I was in the stands so I didn't have the vantage point. I was waiting for the varsity game cause I wanted to scout the varsity officials.

Anyway there was a woman ref who reminded me of Violet Palmer. (the NBA official)

She had this chip on her shoulder and was calling everything. I mean everything. Yes.. there was some contact sure, but not enought IMO to call it every time. This woman blew her whistle more then Jenna Jamison.. well anyway.. she blew the whistle alot.

She was getting bood mercelesly.

My question is.. Why??.. I notice this with alot of women officials. (not all of them) Her calls were confident and her mechanics were good, but.. very over zealous with the whistle IMO.

Also called alot of travel calls that IMO were not nessesary. The player would be catching the ball in the middle of a step. They would establish the pivot foot, and then pivot and she would call it.

Really made the game hard to watch. Thats why I try to call more blatent stuff. I'd rather be accused of swallowing the whistle vs taking over the game.

Just my 2 pennys.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Anyway there was a woman ref who reminded me of Violet Palmer. (the NBA official)

She had this chip on her shoulder and was calling everything. I mean everything.

Have you ever met Ms. Palmer? What was it about this official that reminded you of her, other than the fact that she was a woman?

I had the extreme pleasure of meeting Ms. Palmer at camp and I can tell you that she has no chip on her shoulder. She is confident, but does not have the "in your face" mentality that we see with a lot of male officials.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Have you ever met Ms. Palmer? What was it about this official that reminded you of her, other than the fact that she was a woman?

I had the extreme pleasure of meeting Ms. Palmer at camp and I can tell you that she has no chip on her shoulder. She is confident, but does not have the "in your face" mentality that we see with a lot of male officials.

I have watched ms palmer officiate and she officiates with a chip on her shoulder. She IMO is the WORST official in the nba, and I cringe every time I watch a game with her as an official.

She may be a very nice person off the court. May be a saint. I'm just talking about on the court presence. She comes accross as if she has somthing to proove. As officials we dont have to prove anything, and I think she loses sight of that.

Its just an opinion. Nothing more.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

She had this chip on her shoulder and was calling everything. I mean everything. Yes.. there was some contact sure, but not enought IMO to call it every time. This woman blew her whistle more then Jenna Jamison.. well anyway.. she blew the whistle alot.

She was getting bood mercelesly.

My question is.. Why??.. I notice this with alot of women officials. (not all of them) Her calls were confident and her mechanics were good, but.. very over zealous with the whistle IMO.

Also called alot of travel calls that IMO were not nessesary. The player would be catching the ball in the middle of a step. They would establish the pivot foot, and then pivot and she would call it.

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I have watched ms palmer officiate and she officiates with a chip on her shoulder. She IMO is the WORST official in the nba, and I cringe every time I watch a game with her as an official.

She may be a very nice person off the court. May be a saint. I'm just talking about on the court presence. She comes accross as if she has somthing to proove. As officials we dont have to prove anything, and I think she loses sight of that.

Its just an opinion. Nothing more.

Speaking as a woman official and having seen and interacted with many male and female officials, I'd say the problem here is that you're mis-interpreting what you're seeing. In my experience a lot more women have good reason to have chips on their shoulders than actually do. I'd you're seeing something that seems to you like a chip but isn't really. Are there women with chips on their shoulders? Sure. But I'd say "most women" is too many.

I suggest you work with some of these women and get to know them personally so that you can judge their work as you know them, too. Might make a difference in how you see things.

And with regard to Ms Palmer, if she were the worst ref in the NBA, she wouldn't still be there. THey've got a number of very good women refs in their D league, and they certainly don't need to keep her for political reasons. There are plenty of people who could step up and fill her shoes, if she couldn't.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I have watched ms palmer officiate and she officiates with a chip on her shoulder. She IMO is the WORST official in the nba, and I cringe every time I watch a game with her as an official.

That may be but the NBA has been disagreeing with you since 1997. In fact they disagree so much that she's now getting play off games.

As for your original post... usually JV games are officiated by JV officials. They have some learning to do whether men or women. But I cringe whenever I hear an official say he doesn't want to "take over the game". That's what we're there for.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I'm just talking about on the court presence. She comes accross as if she has somthing to proove.

If you've ever read interviews with players, they love her precisely because they can talk to her and she DOESN'T have a chip on her shoulder when they go to her. She's actually a very calming influence on the court.

Just goes to show that perceptions can be deceiving.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tnsteele95

Again, middle school games last night, two officials. Four games total, two JV two Varsity. It seemed as though both officials were content to let the kids play ball, which meant it was very physical. The crowd got a little rough, but seemed o.k. the first couple of games. As the night wore on, the officials just swallowed there whistles and didn't call anything except out of bounds. Kids were swinging elbows, pushing, traveling, just a very out of control situation which led to a few kids getting hurt and the crowd was absolutely out of control. After the game, I heard one official tell a paret, "We were just trying to let them play ball."

So here's my question, where do you draw the line between calling everything and letting them play? I'm just a rec league guy, but I've learned quickly that it's a safer bet just to call evrything the whole ball game. It may slow the pace, but there's a lot less blood.

The trick to this level is to learn how to strike the balance.

First, it has to be your balance, not the fans'. They have no concept of balance. They want everything that their kids do to be legal, and everything the opponents do to be illegal.

Second, that balance has to be based on the rules, and not the skill level. Some kids just aren't going to make shots with or with out contact. If there's borderline contact, that really didn't affect a really bad shot, well, that's not illegal. On the other hand, if there's really nasty contact that was just because of a defender's clumsiness, well, it's illegal, even though it wasn't an attitude problem.

Protect the shooter. That's a standard judgemnt standard. Call it pretty tight on shooting, especially at the lower levels. On everything else, watch for displacement. That's a good standard for most fouls.

Third, with regard to violations, you have to be strict, so that they learn, but not so strict that the game never ends. I try to loosen the definitions a little and then call that line pretty tightly. It's not really A/D, it's "pragmatic rule-bending".

Fourth, you don't let the coaches whine you down. They may affect your judgment in certain ways, such as when they both come to you together and ask you to crack down (I've had that happen). Or they may actually ask you to call things a little tighter on their own players to teach them a lesson. But don't let their whining or complaining adjust your balance point.

Develop some phrases you can say to coaches if necessary: "Coach, hard contact like that is always a foul" "Coach, there was no advantage" "She had legal guarding position". Whatever, to let them know that you're using an objective standard, not selling the game to the squeakiest wheel.

Keep things consistent throughout a single game, but adjust your balance for each game as necessary. DOn't hesitate to discuss with partner. Don't give up doing the best you can.

[KingTripleJump]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I have watched ms palmer officiate and she officiates with a chip on her shoulder. She IMO is the WORST official in the nba, and I cringe every time I watch a game with her as an official.

She may be a very nice person off the court. May be a saint. I'm just talking about on the court presence. She comes accross as if she has somthing to proove. As officials we dont have to prove anything, and I think she loses sight of that.

Its just an opinion. Nothing more.

Guess we must be thinking of two different Violet Palmers then because I don't see any of that at all in her officiating.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Develop some phrases you can say to coaches if necessary: "Coach, hard contact like that is always a foul" "Coach, there was no advantage" "She had legal guarding position".

Juulie - you forgot closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and saying, "la la la la la la la la la la la la la.......".

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Juulie - you forgot closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and saying, "la la la la la la la la la la la la la.......".

Yea, I knew I forgot something. Thanks for helping....

[stripes]

Originally Posted by KingTripleJump

Guess we must be thinking of two different Violet Palmers then because I don't see any of that at all in her officiating.

Not me...I see it in her officiating. I don't think she is the worst in the nba (rainmaker is right, there are plenty of officials waiting to step into anyone's shoes if they cna't do the job), but I think she refs like she has an attitude. That being said, I think lots of the NBA refs look like they have an attitude on the court.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by stripes

, but I think she refs like she has an attitude. That being said, I think lots of the NBA refs look like they have an attitude on the court.

Right. She doesn't have any MORE attitude than a lot of men. You've gotta have some kinda something to be an NBA ref. Personally, I think a lot of us aren't used to seeing that in women and it looks odd or unpleasant to us. But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Some of us just need to get used to it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Some of us just need to get used to it.

I don't wanna.