Patient Whistle

[shutupneff]

Originally Posted by refnuts

It was 2 person. Partner saw the contact but was not blowing a foul right in front of me.

Sounds like your partner should've called it with a patient whistle. If you see something in your partner's primary, wait a beat for them to call it and, using that time, figure out if they didn't have the best angle for some reason (straightlined etc.). If so, blow your whistle and save your partner.

I had a play a few weeks ago where I was caught out of position and would have liked the help. I was new trail in 2-whistle. A1 made an unexpected attempt to blow by B1 just passed midcourt, and I got stuck behind the play. B1 tried to get in front of A1 but never obtained LGP, contact (which I couldn't see) occurs, A1 stumbles and B1 falls to the floor. I waited a beat, decided a foul had definitely occurred even if I didn't see the actual contact and blew my whistle and put my fist up. I waited another beat to replay it in my head and then signaled a block, and almost everyone in the gym starts screaming that it was a stiff arm. I realize that, if it was, I'd had the absolute worst angle on the play and call my partner over.
"Did you see the contact?"
"Oh yeah. Blatant stiff arm."
I signal a PC foul. Team A coach wasn't happy, but that was mainly because he lost his best player to a fifth foul in a close game. Afterwards, I told my partner exactly what I said in the first paragraph.

[APG]

Originally Posted by shutupneff

I had a play a few weeks ago where I was caught out of position and would have liked the help. I was new trail in 2-whistle. A1 made an unexpected attempt to blow by B1 just passed midcourt, and I got stuck behind the play. B1 tried to get in front of A1 but never obtained LGP, contact (which I couldn't see) occurs, A1 stumbles and B1 falls to the floor. I waited a beat, decided a foul had definitely occurred even if I didn't see the actual contact and blew my whistle and put my fist up. I waited another beat to replay it in my head and then signaled a block, and almost everyone in the gym starts screaming that it was a stiff arm. I realize that, if it was, I'd had the absolute worst angle on the play and call my partner over.
"Did you see the contact?"
"Oh yeah. Blatant stiff arm."
I signal a PC foul. Team A coach wasn't happy, but that was mainly because he lost his best player to a fifth foul in a close game. Afterwards, I told my partner exactly what I said in the first paragraph.

I'm not sure if I'm going to go to my partner in this situation. Especially after I've come out with a preliminary. What's to stop the coach from asking you to go to your partner and change any of your judgment calls after you've already set precedent to do so?

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I'm not sure if I'm going to go to my partner in this situation. Especially after I've come out with a preliminary. What's to stop the coach from asking you to go to your partner and change any of your judgment calls after you've already set precedent to do so?

Agree 100% - if your partner saw a "blantant stiff arm" - why did he/she not call the foul? If you didn't see it, why did you?

You're asking for a heap of trouble with this...

And I'd bet the coach was upset for a lot more than his player fouling out.

[BillyMac]

Boys varsity. I'm the lead hanging back near the division line, table side, helping my partner with a press/press break situation. Offensive team is doing a good job at breaking the press, and several players from both teams are moving into the front court. As I'm making a quarter turn with my body to pay attention to the players in the front court, out of the corner of my eye I "kind of" see a player about ten feet behind me "maybe" take a few steps. I never really had a pivot foot picked out, so I passed on it, and started thinking about the crap I was about to get from the coach when my partner, as the trail, calls the travel even though he's about twenty-five feet away from the player. Thanks partner. Later he told me that he saw me make that quarter turn. That's what partners are for.

[shutupneff]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Agree 100% - if your partner saw a "blantant stiff arm" - why did he/she not call the foul? If you didn't see it, why did you?

You're asking for a heap of trouble with this...

And I'd bet the coach was upset for a lot more than his player fouling out.

I guess I should add some context. This was a 7/8B Boys & Girls youth league with (ahem) minimally trained refs, and my partner was 1st year and still in the tail end of his "afraid to blow the whistle" phase. When I first took a beat before blowing mine, I saw that there was no one between him and the play and hoped he would call it. When I saw he wasn't going to, I did even though I was only wanout 85% certain a defensive foul had occurred. In hindsight, I'll admit that I probably should have let it go, and I definitely shouldn't have been caught out of position (in my defense, it was my fifth game of the day, and my legs were tired).

Under most circumstances, at a higher level or with a more experienced partner, had I still made those two mistakes, I would have had a "if I missed it I missed ut, but it's what I called" attitude. But I would hope thaty partner would have blown his whistle during my initial pause, and at least would have come in after I signaled the block, and we could've at least had a blarge (I'd rather get it half right than all wrong).

And my main point stands: if you see something in your partner's area and see that they didn't see it, call it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by shutupneff

And my main point stands: if you see something in your partner's area and see that they didn't see it, call it.

With rare exceptions (this situation qualifies), I disagree. If you know your partner got straightlined off of a stiff-arm type foul, maybe.

[shutupneff]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

With rare exceptions (this situation qualifies), I disagree. If you know your partner got straightlined off of a stiff-arm type foul, maybe.

I can't remember who it was, but someone on here
mentioned the three types of foul theory (hmmm, that was a foul; That was a foul!; THAT WAS A FOUL!!!), and you should pass on anything in the first category out of your zone, always call anything in the third category, and only call the second category out of your zone if your partner was straightlined or looking the wrong way. That's what I was trying to say, except I forgot about the first category, and that the majority of contact falls in it. It was clear in my head, but when I tried to write it down, I was definitely guilty of an always/never violation.

If you disagree with me further, well, okay.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by shutupneff

The three types of foul theory (hmmm, that was a foul; That was a foul!; THAT WAS A FOUL!!!), and you should pass on anything in the first category out of your zone, always call anything in the third category, and only call the second category out of your zone if your partner was straightlined or looking the wrong way.

"If you see an elephant in your partners area, make the call. If you see an insect, leave it alone." © 2010 just another ref

[Adam]

Originally Posted by shutupneff

I can't remember who it was, but someone on here
mentioned the three types of foul theory (hmmm, that was a foul; That was a foul!; THAT WAS A FOUL!!!), and you should pass on anything in the first category out of your zone, always call anything in the third category, and only call the second category out of your zone if your partner was straightlined or looking the wrong way. That's what I was trying to say, except I forgot about the first category, and that the majority of contact falls in it. It was clear in my head, but when I tried to write it down, I was definitely guilty of an always/never violation.

If you disagree with me further, well, okay.

Nope, I don't disagree.