New one for me...

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Oh?

SITUATION 12: Following a (a) charged time-out; or (b) a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both teams, A5 goes to the bench and remains there mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced by a substitute. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return, and he/she sprints onto the court and catches up with play. RULING: In (a), the officials shall stop play and assess a team technical foul for not having all players return to the court at approximately the same time after a time-out. The technical foul counts toward the team-foul count. In (b), the officials may permit play to continue without penalty. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court. COMMENT: Even though neither situation provided A5 or Team A with an advantage, teams are expected to return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out. The officials should have also followed the prescribed mechanics and counted the number of players on the court, ensuring each team has the legal number of players. (10-1-9; 10-3-3)

This is how the interp red in the 08 rules by topic but it changed in 09. Did they change it back?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

This is how the interp red in the 08 rules by topic but it changed in 09. Did they change it back?

No idea. What was the change?

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No idea. What was the change?

It is no longer a T.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

According to the OP, the player did return to the court for the start of the 2nd qtr;

1. Team V had five players to start qtr. Therefore Sit 12 A does not apply.

2. V11 leaves court - violation? (not called)

3. V11 then comes back on to the court; is this a T for not being beckoned? I think Sit 12 B applies - A5 is supposed to be on the court, and A5's return is not deceitful - therefore play on or IW.

Correct response.

Originally Posted by gslefeb

BillyMac

I agree - Sub or player? Sit 12 B - seems to indicate the 5th is a player and therefore can come onto the court.

Again, you are correct that he is still a player, not a sub.

[Paul LeBoutillier]

Originally Posted by jkohls

And sorry to offend, deecee. I didn't intend to convey a "retarded *** attitude."

Dude, you did NOT convey a retarded attitude. Some people are just a bit too reactive. It's cool.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

It is no longer a T.

What is no longer a T?

Where is this written?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jkohls

BJV last night. Start of the 2Q, I'm lead. Both huddles are slow coming out on the second horn. Trail administers throwin to V, and we go. About 10 seconds in C, tableside, blows the whistle. He waves me over, and says a player got up from the bench and ran onto the floor, passing him as he ran in. T says he counted 5 before handing the ball for the throw in, and C and myself both said we also counted 5. We assess the technical and I go to the V bench to explain. I tell him that we had V11 entering, during play and without being beckoned. He tells me that 11 had been on the floor when the ball was inbounded, got counfused about if he was supposed to be in the game, and sat down. According to the coach, since he had been on the floor legally at the throw in, that gave him the right to come back in as he did. I told him that in that case, his player had left the floor iliegally and the technical was still correct. His response? "Well, it worked last Tuesday."

It was an interesting situation for us, and the coach's response was very interesting...

Okay, here's what I see:
You all count 5 before hand. No one sees V11 leave the floor, but C sees him run past him. Did C even see him on the bench? V11 isn't a sub, so you can't charge him with a T for coming in unbeckoned. The most you can do here is charge V with a violation and give A the ball at V's bench. I'm not even sure you can do that, though, since no one saw him leave the court. For all you know, he tripped over his shoe laces and landed on the bench.

If, for some reason, you charged the T for failing to have all players come on at the same time after a TO, it's a team T; no player and no coach.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

It is no longer a T.

Rules by topic isn't authoritative, I don't think.

[GoodwillRef]

Why are you apologizing to Deecee...he should be apologizing to you!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by goodwillref

why are you apologizing to deecee...he should be apologizing to you!!

+1

[deecee]

I agree, I was out of line I just read your statement as overly sarcastic after a response was given.

My bad I need to get back on my prescribed dose of meds and not overdoing it

[BillyMac]

Saturday. Boys varsity. My partner is preparing to administer a throwin when the table sounds the horn for substitutes. I'm right near the table, in front of the Team A bench. I hold up my hand to prevent my partner from handing the ball to the player for the throwin and I beckon the substitutes. Several substitutes enter the game, and several come out. My hand is still up as I do a quick count. Good thing because I count six Team A players on the court, so I keep my hand up. I wait several seconds for the extra player to leave the court, but the players don't seem to know who should come out. My hand is still up. The Team A coach is right behind me, so I tell him, "Can't play with six". He looks around trying to decide who should come out. My hand is still up. Now the Team B coach figures out that there are six opponents on the court, and yells to me, "Isn't that technical foul?". I respond, "Only if my partner hands the throwin player the ball". My hand is still up. Finally, the Team A coach yanks one of his players, my hand comes down, finally, my partner administers the throwin, and we play ball.

What is the difference between preventative officiating and coaching? How long should I, or could I, have waited?

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rules by topic isn't authoritative, I don't think.

I appreciate that. So is this how it reads in the new case book? I just looked this sit in the rules by topic and it is no longer a T if the player is not doing it on purpose or gaining an advantage. Don't have my case book.

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What is no longer a T?

Where is this written?

Your sit 12. No longer a T in the 08 and 09 rules by topic. Is your sit out of the new case book?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

Your sit 12. No longer a T in the 08 and 09 rules by topic. Is your sit out of the new case book?

Situation is from the 07-08 interps. This interpretation, in my opinion, is consistent with the wording of the rule, even though I don't care much for the rule. In the current case play 10.1.9, the team does gain an apparent advantage, but this condition is not specified anywhere else.

What, specifically, does your book say about this?

And why is there yet another NFHS rules publication in the first place?