Flagrant foul during the shot

[GtuddaC]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Whatever you found online is simply not accurate.

And I don't see the logic behind the "reward"...unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally and therefore fouls harder to prevent the basket. If the player is already processing that he's going to foul intentionally, he's probably going to do what he can to prevent the make anyway.

Intentional fouls carry the additional penalty of rewarding the offended team the ball. It's already more severe than a common foul. If the player adds enough "extra" to an intentional foul it can be deemed flagrant, which carries the same on-court penalties plus disqualifies the offending player.

By your logic (rewarding an additional 2 shots if the try is unsuccessful) we should also add one additional shot if the try is successful (one for the 'and 1' and two for the intentional foul).

The rule is pretty clear, and I've never seen an incident that would make me re-think its appropriateness.

Well, if in fact the rule is as you say it is, you ARE rewarding the team who committed the foul. The "intention" when committing an "intentional foul" comes from purposely fouling a player without employing a "basketball move". If this is the rule in place, what is there to stop a team from intentionally fouling on every possesion. If you dont want to call it "rewarding the offending team", you are ATLEAST penalizing the offended team for being in the act of shooting when the intentional foul was committed.

Also, under the rule as you say it is, the offending teams shot attempt should be waved off regardless of make/miss. They should only get the 2 technical fouls shots and the ball.

Otherwise, this entire rule is inappropriate. Entirely too much gray area.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by GtuddaC

If this is the rule in place, what is there to stop a team from intentionally fouling on every possesion.

The fact that the offended team receives two shots and possession of the ball.

This is a silly argument.

[APG]

That fact is you'll find that in none of the codes do you penalize an intentional/flagrant foul (or their equivalents in other codes) during a try with two shots for the act of shooting plus two shots for the intentional/flagrant.

NFHS: 2 shots + ball unless it's a missed three point attempt
NCAA: Same as NFHS
NBA (Flagrant Type I/Type II): 2 shots+ball unless a missed three point shot. If a made basket, the opponent would have a 2 free throw attempts to make 1.

All three bodies deem the penalty of free throws, possession, and possible ejection enough of a penalty.

[jargo9]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

That fact is you'll find that in none of the codes do you penalize an intentional/flagrant foul (or their equivalents in other codes) during a try with two shots for the act of shooting plus two shots for the intentional/flagrant.

NFHS: 2 shots + ball unless it's a missed three point attempt
NCAA: Same as NFHS
NBA (Flagrant Type I/Type II): 2 shots+ball unless a missed three point shot. If a made basket, the opponent would have a 2 free throw attempts to make 1.
All three bodies deem the penalty of free throws, possession, and possible ejection enough of a penalty.

Please explain whats in red.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Please explain whats in red.

The fouled player in that scenario is allowed up to two shots to make one. He cannot score more than one point, so if he makes the first, the second shot is not attempted. If he misses the first, he is allowed another attempt to score the one point.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GtuddaC

] If you dont want to call it "rewarding the offending team", you are ATLEAST penalizing the offended team for being in the act of shooting when the intentional foul was committed.

If the shot is made, then the team gets the basket, plus two shots, plus the ball. That seems like a significant enough penalty.

Also, under the rule as you say it is, the offending teams shot attempt should be waved off regardless of make/miss. They should only get the 2 technical fouls shots and the ball.

I'm confused. I thought we were talking about (intentional) personal fouls. What "technical fouls shots" are there?

[GtuddaC]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the shot is made, then the team gets the basket, plus two shots, plus the ball. That seems like a significant enough penalty.



I'm confused. I thought we were talking about (intentional) personal fouls. What "technical fouls shots" are there?

The shot was not made.

And i apologize for the incorrect language. "intentional foul shots"....is that better?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GtuddaC

The shot was not made.

So: Common foul: Two shots and either a rebound or the defense gets the ball. Intentional: Two shots and the offense gets the ball. Still seems like enough of a penalty.

And i apologize for the incorrect language. "intentional foul shots"....is that better?

Yes. Thanks

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by GtuddaC

The shot was not made.

And i apologize for the incorrect language. "intentional foul shots"....is that better?

Only slightly: 'foul shot' is not in the rule book.

[jargo9]

[QUOTE=bob jenkins;660096]If the shot is made, then the team gets the basket, plus two shots, plus the ball. That seems like a significant enough penalty.


And if he misses he only gets two shots and the ball? I keep hearing this and it just sounds more bacwards and weird everytime.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jargo9

And if he misses he only gets two shots and the ball? I keep hearing this and it just sounds more bacwards and weird everytime.

The biggest difference between an intentional foul and a 'regular' foul is that the offended team retains possession after the free throws.

Note the part in red above. That's the additional penalty for intentionally fouling a player. It matters not what the player is doing when he is fouled (except in the one instance in which he is attempting a three point try) - he gets two shots for that action.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by GtuddaC

Well, if in fact the rule is as you say it is, you ARE rewarding the team who committed the foul. The "intention" when committing an "intentional foul" comes from purposely fouling a player without employing a "basketball move". If this is the rule in place, what is there to stop a team from intentionally fouling on every possesion. If you dont want to call it "rewarding the offending team", you are ATLEAST penalizing the offended team for being in the act of shooting when the intentional foul was committed.

What are you talking about? How are you penalizing the team for being in the act of shooting? If he makes the shot, it counts and they still get two free throws. If he doesn't, he's not penalized just because he doesn't get extra free throws.

As has been pointed out, what prevents players from doing this every possessions is the simple fact that the offended team gets free throws and a throw in.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by GtuddaC

Also, under the rule as you say it is, the offending teams shot attempt should be waved off regardless of make/miss. They should only get the 2 technical fouls shots and the ball.

Otherwise, this entire rule is inappropriate. Entirely too much gray area.

What? This makes no sense. Why would the rule (as I say it is - which is how the rule book says it is) require us to wave off a shot attempt? Your argument has no logic.

And what gray area is there? Any time there is an intentional personal foul, the offended player receives 2 tries unless he was fouled during an unsuccessful 3-point try in which case he receives 3 tries. Pretty black-and-white.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by GtuddaC

Well, if in fact the rule is as you say it is, you ARE rewarding the team who committed the foul. The "intention" when committing an "intentional foul" comes from purposely fouling a player without employing a "basketball move".

Got a rule reference for this? You put it in quotes, so I assume you've got a reference.

Originally Posted by GtuddaC

Also, under the rule as you say it is, the offending teams shot attempt should be waved off regardless of make/miss. They should only get the 2 technical fouls shots and the ball.

Where did anyone say this?

Originally Posted by GtuddaC

Otherwise, this entire rule is inappropriate. Entirely too much gray area.

Sorry, but there's not a hint of gray in this.

[APG]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Does this not seem to reward a defensive player to foul "harder"(if you will) to ensure that if a flagrant/intentional is called that he doesnt make the basket?

I have also found online that it says the player should receive the 2FT for the intentional and the 2 on the shot. I will try to post the link.

I guess that's one way to look at it. You're also giving the ball back to the offense and a potential 4-5 point swing if the shot is unsuccessful. Plus, if you're committing a flagrant foul, you're done for the game. And I've never met a player who thought the reward of ensuring a missed basket on a foul outweighed his opportunity to actually participate in the game. You'll find that most coaches aren't too happy when their players commit intentional/flagrant fouls.

As far as what you found online, if it does indeed say that, it is unequivocally wrong.