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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 12:12pm
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Flagrant foul?

Is unsporting dead ball contact automatically a flagrant foul, hence ejection? Or can it be ruled an unsporting technical, hence no ejection?

Girls game yesterday (13-14 travel teams). Blow the whistle for held ball. Both girls are tussling for the ball and both seem to stop on the whistle. But then A1 gives a firm push with the shoulder and elbow to B1, as if to say "get off me." Its a hard enough push that I cannot ingore, but it's not "violent, vulgar, persistent, savage or abusive, " as it says in the rule book. I give A1 technical, but no ejection. Is that acceptable?
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Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 12:17pm
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Yes.
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Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmarcus View Post
Is unsporting dead ball contact automatically a flagrant foul, hence ejection? Or can it be ruled an unsporting technical, hence no ejection?

Girls game yesterday (13-14 travel teams). Blow the whistle for held ball. Both girls are tussling for the ball and both seem to stop on the whistle. But then A1 gives a firm push with the shoulder and elbow to B1, as if to say "get off me." Its a hard enough push that I cannot ingore, but it's not "violent, vulgar, persistent, savage or abusive, " as it says in the rule book. I give A1 technical, but no ejection. Is that acceptable?
You did fine.

If you deem the contact to be intentional, but not flagrant, then you penalize with an intentional technical foul instead of a flagrant technical foul.

If you aren't familiar with the term intentional technical foul, learn it now.

Don't let the jargon intimidate you, it simply means that there was intentional contact during a dead ball as opposed to flagrant contact. Under NFHS rules, it's administered just as any other technical foul--2 shots and the ball at the division line.

PS Unsporting technical fouls are for non-contact situations as the NFHS defines an unsporting foul as a non-contact foul. Therefore, verbal comments or inappropriate gestures would fall within this category.
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Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmarcus View Post
Is unsporting dead ball contact automatically a flagrant foul, hence ejection? Or can it be ruled an unsporting technical, hence no ejection?

Girls game yesterday (13-14 travel teams). Blow the whistle for held ball. Both girls are tussling for the ball and both seem to stop on the whistle. But then A1 gives a firm push with the shoulder and elbow to B1, as if to say "get off me." Its a hard enough push that I cannot ingore, but it's not "violent, vulgar, persistent, savage or abusive, " as it says in the rule book. I give A1 technical, but no ejection. Is that acceptable?
No; and most definitely, yes.

Very acceptable. A flagrant in this case would be an incorrect call.
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Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 12:21pm
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
No; and most definitely, yes.

Very acceptable. A flagrant in this case would be an incorrect call.
Very clever to use blue to describe something more likely to happen in a boys game and pink to describe something more likely to happen in a girls game.

OK - it was magenta, but that's pretty close.
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Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 12:25pm
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I'm just happy that I spelled definitely without an "a"!
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Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 12:27pm
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Thanks guys for the help. I really appreciate this forum...
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Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 08:11pm
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I can see it clearly now..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You did fine.

If you deem the contact to be intentional, but not flagrant, then you penalize with an intentional technical foul instead of a flagrant technical foul.

If you aren't familiar with the term intentional technical foul, learn it now.

Don't let the jargon intimidate you, it simply means that there was intentional contact during a dead ball as opposed to flagrant contact. Under NFHS rules, it's administered just as any other technical foul--2 shots and the ball at the division line.

PS Unsporting technical fouls are for non-contact situations as the NFHS defines an unsporting foul as a non-contact foul. Therefore, verbal comments or inappropriate gestures would fall within this category.
Nevada..thanks for an excellent explanation of the difference between the two, and the proper application of each. Yes, I had read the rule and case book on the two...but "got intimidated by the terminolgy" when the exact same situation occured in the waning seconds of a BJV game I did the other night. I blew it by just calling a foul (mind went blank in a microsec) and knowing after that it should have been a T...but not sure if it should have been intentional or flagrant. Experienced P corrected me during post-game....but your explanation made it much clearer to me.
Lesson learned by this newbie...hopefully I'll react to the situation better the next time it should occur and apply the rule/penaltied the right way.
KJump
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Old Mon Feb 23, 2009, 11:47pm
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Originally Posted by KJUmp View Post
Nevada..thanks for an excellent explanation of the difference between the two, and the proper application of each. Yes, I had read the rule and case book on the two...but "got intimidated by the terminolgy" when the exact same situation occured in the waning seconds of a BJV game I did the other night. I blew it by just calling a foul (mind went blank in a microsec) and knowing after that it should have been a T...but not sure if it should have been intentional or flagrant. Experienced P corrected me during post-game....but your explanation made it much clearer to me.
Lesson learned by this newbie...hopefully I'll react to the situation better the next time it should occur and apply the rule/penaltied the right way.
KJump
Must not be that experienced if he waited til then to bring it up. If my partner has information relative to a rule, he'd better bring it to me on the court or keep his mouth shut in the locker room.
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Old Tue Feb 24, 2009, 12:24am
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Originally Posted by refguy View Post
Must not be that experienced if he waited til then to bring it up. If my partner has information relative to a rule, he'd better bring it to me on the court or keep his mouth shut in the locker room.
I think this is a bit harsh; P may not have been sure what was called and when. I think it's fair to bring this up afterwards as a learning point.
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Old Tue Feb 24, 2009, 05:10am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I think this is a bit harsh; P may not have been sure what was called and when. I think it's fair to bring this up afterwards as a learning point.
Thanks Snags. Just to clearify my OP for Refguy....
P was an official who has been at it many, many more years than me (hence my refering to him as experienced). he was an IAABO patched official from a board in a border state, and by his own admission in our pre-game he's at that stage of winding his career down these past few seasons and just does lower level games and has not been as diligent at keeping current on rules/interps.
I always look forward to working with refs who have earned the patch, and try to listen and learn from them, and I always treat them with the respect that I feel they deserve having achieved something that I'm working hard to attain...board status. I learned early on from this Forum that as a newbie that when I work with or get observed by veteran officials to 1) ask good,pertinent questions of them that will help my game 2) LISTEN more than talk 3) OBSERVE 4) take the information that's correct and useful to me...work into my game and disregard the stuff that isn't.
Bottom line here is that at this point in my season I should have known the right rule application for the sitch....I did on paper but I choked on the court. That's not my P's fault. Who knows, maybe he wanted to see if the other HC was going to complain and wanted to see how I'd handle it on my own...and would have stepped in to help if he saw me about to "drown".
Anyway...I learned from it, which as I've also learned on this forum is the most importamt thing in developing as an official.
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Old Tue Feb 24, 2009, 06:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmarcus View Post
Girls game yesterday (13-14 travel teams). Blow the whistle for held ball. Both girls are tussling for the ball and both seem to stop on the whistle. But then A1 gives a firm push with the shoulder and elbow to B1, as if to say "get off me." Its a hard enough push that I cannot ingore, but it's not "violent, vulgar, persistent, savage or abusive, " as it says in the rule book. I give A1 technical, but no ejection. Is that acceptable?
I had a similar situation earlier this yr in a JVG game. But, well after the whistle, girls on the floor, and an elbow came up and BAM a girl went down! WHACK, T!

Right or wrong, during my captains meetings in G games I always, always tell them "when the whistle blows, stop wrestling." (no snide comments Mark) Now, I know the captains won't share that information, but my experience has been that girls have more on the ground free-for-alls for the ball than the boys. Just my experience.
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Old Tue Feb 24, 2009, 09:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You did fine.

If you deem the contact to be intentional, but not flagrant, then you penalize with an intentional technical foul instead of a flagrant technical foul.

If you aren't familiar with the term intentional technical foul, learn it now.

Don't let the jargon intimidate you, it simply means that there was intentional contact during a dead ball as opposed to flagrant contact. Under NFHS rules, it's administered just as any other technical foul--2 shots and the ball at the division line.

PS Unsporting technical fouls are for non-contact situations as the NFHS defines an unsporting foul as a non-contact foul. Therefore, verbal comments or inappropriate gestures would fall within this category.
One of the things I am going to suggest to our rules interpreter this next season is to really discuss the differences between these Technicals. I think a lot of new officials do get confused when it comes to this.
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