Flagrant foul during the shot

[jargo9]

Does this not seem to reward a defensive player to foul "harder"(if you will) to ensure that if a flagrant/intentional is called that he doesnt make the basket?

I have also found online that it says the player should receive the 2FT for the intentional and the 2 on the shot. I will try to post the link.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Does this not seem to reward a defensive player to foul "harder"(if you will) to ensure that if a flagrant/intentional is called that he doesnt make the basket?

I have also found online that it says the player should receive the 2FT for the intentional and the 2 on the shot. I will try to post the link.

Whatever you found online is simply not accurate.

And I don't see the logic behind the "reward"...unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally and therefore fouls harder to prevent the basket. If the player is already processing that he's going to foul intentionally, he's probably going to do what he can to prevent the make anyway.

Intentional fouls carry the additional penalty of rewarding the offended team the ball. It's already more severe than a common foul. If the player adds enough "extra" to an intentional foul it can be deemed flagrant, which carries the same on-court penalties plus disqualifies the offending player.

By your logic (rewarding an additional 2 shots if the try is unsuccessful) we should also add one additional shot if the try is successful (one for the 'and 1' and two for the intentional foul).

The rule is pretty clear, and I've never seen an incident that would make me re-think its appropriateness.

[jargo9]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Whatever you found online is simply not accurate.

And I don't see the logic behind the "reward"...unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally and therefore fouls harder to prevent the basket. If the player is already processing that he's going to foul intentionally, he's probably going to do what he can to prevent the make anyway.

Intentional fouls carry the additional penalty of rewarding the offended team the ball. It's already more severe than a common foul. If the player adds enough "extra" to an intentional foul it can be deemed flagrant, which carries the same on-court penalties plus disqualifies the offending player.

By your logic (rewarding an additional 2 shots if the try is unsuccessful) we should also add one additional shot if the try is successful (one for the 'and 1' and two for the intentional foul).

The rule is pretty clear, and I've never seen an incident that would make me re-think its appropriateness.

Not to split hairs here but you said "unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally " wouldnt by definition the word INTENTIONAL cover him knowing he was going to commit a foul of this nature?

I guess all i am saying is if an intentional/flagrant foul is commited during the non-shooting act the offensive team should not receive the same reward as during the shot(my opinion)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jargo9

I guess all i am saying is if an intentional/flagrant foul is commited during the non-shooting act the offensive team should not receive the same reward as during the shot(my opinion)

So then you're encouraging the defender to foul sooner is all.

Submit a rule change suggestion granting an extra free throw for intentional fouls committed against players in the act of shooting.

[jargo9]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So then you're encouraging the defender to foul sooner is all.

Submit a rule change suggestion granting an extra free throw for intentional fouls committed against players in the act of shooting.

This happened last night during the Syracuse game and I still didnt like the fact that they didnt get a 3rd free throw. BUT...atleast i got to see the rule in full force! Thanks for the help on the forum.

BTW- I am trying to get into officiating and was wondering if you had any suggestions?

[Adam]

This looks like a good place to start.

It has email contacts in there based on your area of SC.

That's if you want to get in at the hs level. If you want to work YMCA type ball, contact the rec center or YMCA near you and find out who schedules officials. They should have contact information for you as well.

[jargo9]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This looks like a good place to start.

It has email contacts in there based on your area of SC.

That's if you want to get in at the hs level. If you want to work YMCA type ball, contact the rec center or YMCA near you and find out who schedules officials. They should have contact information for you as well.

Thanks for the link. I emailed the head official in district 8(my district) for basketball and football on Tuesday but received no response. I will continue to search for the correct avenue but I appreciate your insight.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Not to split hairs here but you said "unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally " wouldnt by definition the word INTENTIONAL cover him knowing he was going to commit a foul of this nature?

There is a difference between the dictionary definition of 'intentional' and the rulebook definition of 'intentional foul.' There are many times that fouls that are committed intentionally (think end of game needing to put someone on the line) are not called as intentional fouls (by rule).

Originally Posted by jargo9

I guess all i am saying is if an intentional/flagrant foul is commited during the non-shooting act the offensive team should not receive the same reward as during the shot(my opinion)

I understand that and can see your argument. I disagree, but that doesn't really matter in practice as neither of us make the rules. And the rule is clear on the penalty here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Not to split hairs here but you said "unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally " wouldnt by definition the word INTENTIONAL cover him knowing he was going to commit a foul of this nature?

Maybe the Webster's definition, but not the NFHS definition.

[jargo9]

Another flagrant foul question for this debacle....

Lets say A1 was fouled(personal) by B1 during the shot but during the shot
A2 was flagrant/intentional foul by B2.....Wouldnt both A1 and A2 both receive 2 free throws each?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Another flagrant foul question for this debacle....

Lets say A1 was fouled(personal) by B1 during the shot but during the shot
A2 was flagrant/intentional foul by B2.....Wouldnt both A1 and A2 both receive 2 free throws each?

By rule, yes. Plus, due to the flagrant/intentional portion of the 2nd foul, A would get the ball at the spot nearest the foul.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Another flagrant foul question for this debacle....

Lets say A1 was fouled(personal) by B1 during the shot but during the shot
A2 was flagrant/intentional foul by B2.....Wouldnt both A1 and A2 both receive 2 free throws each?

The exception would be if the officials get together and determine that the intentional/flagrant action occurred prior to A1 beginning his shooting motion. In that case, the foul on A1 would be ignored as the ball was dead.

[LocDog249]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

The exception would be if the officials get together and determine that the intentional/flagrant action occurred prior to A1 beginning his shooting motion. In that case, the foul on A1 would be ignored as the ball was dead.

Just for fun, lets take it one step further.... A1 jumps, releases shot, B2 intentionally fouls A2, B1 fouls A1, A1 lands after attempt. (Yes, A1 has AMAZING hang time). Now what do you have?

[johnsonboys03]

I read it in case play somewhere that you don't shoot 4 foul shots. Two and the ball unless a missed three point attempt. One that doesn't seem right at first look but makes much more sense the longer you look at it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Not to split hairs here but you said "unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally " wouldnt by definition the word INTENTIONAL cover him knowing he was going to commit a foul of this nature?

I guess all i am saying is if an intentional/flagrant foul is commited during the non-shooting act the offensive team should not receive the same reward as during the shot(my opinion)

You need to take this argument up with the rules makers. We enforce the rules, we don't write them.