Flagrant foul during the shot

[jargo9]

Last night a call was made when A1 was in the air during a layup and was elbowed from behind by B1. The referee called an intentional foul(should this be a flagrant1?) and sent the player to the line for 2 shots and the ball. MY QUESTION- If the player was in the act of shooting (2 FT) and the intentional foul was called (2 FT) shouldnt the offense get a total of 4 free throws w/ no defense in the lane plus the ball under the basket?

[jdw3018]

Nope. Two free throws, plus ball nearest the foul.

Also, no idea if it would/could/should be flagrant from your description. Would likely have to be pretty severe contact, judged intent to injure, or a real swing.

[SAJ]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Last night a call was made when A1 was in the air during a layup and was elbowed from behind by B1. The referee called an intentional foul(should this be a flagrant1?) and sent the player to the line for 2 shots and the ball. MY QUESTION- If the player was in the act of shooting (2 FT) and the intentional foul was called (2 FT) shouldnt the offense get a total of 4 free throws w/ no defense in the lane plus the ball under the basket?

It was one act. Only 2 shots awarded.

[jargo9]

It was a elbow to the head and then B1 then taunted A1.

Let me understand this....if an intentional foul is commited away from the ball you get
:2 shots + the ball

Intentional foul is commited during the shot and the basket is good you get
:basket + 2 shots + the ball

Intentional foul is commited during the shot and the basket is missed and you get
:2 shots and the ball

Something does not add up here

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by jargo9

It was a elbow to the head and then B1 then taunted A1.

Let me understand this....if an intentional foul is commited away from the ball you get
:2 shots + the ball

Intentional foul is commited during the shot and the basket is good you get
:basket + 2 shots + the ball

Intentional foul is commited during the shot and the basket is missed and you get
:2 shots and the ball

Something does not add up here

May not add up but it's the rule. An intentional foul is always two shots and the ball. Made three pointer with an intentional foul...two shots and the ball (possible 5 point play)

-Josh

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Last night a call was made when A1 was in the air during a layup and was elbowed from behind by B1. The referee called an intentional foul(should this be a flagrant1?) and sent the player to the line for 2 shots and the ball. MY QUESTION- If the player was in the act of shooting (2 FT) and the intentional foul was called (2 FT) shouldnt the offense get a total of 4 free throws w/ no defense in the lane plus the ball under the basket?

If you're talking about the Villanova vs WV game it was a good call by the official (IMO). V player had a clear layup and was shoved from the back "intentionally" by the WV player with no intent to play the ball.

It was called against WV, in their home venue, with little to no discussion or argument about the call from the home team.......ok, the fans were none too happy!

[PIAA REF]

Don't Forget if you are intentionally fouled on a 3 and you miss you get 3 shots and the ball, but if you make it you get 2 and the ball.
It doesn't have to add up, it is just the rule.

[APG]

Originally Posted by jargo9

It was a elbow to the head and then B1 then taunted A1.

Let me understand this....if an intentional foul is commited away from the ball you get
:2 shots + the ball

Intentional foul is commited during the shot and the basket is good you get
:basket + 2 shots + the ball

Intentional foul is commited during the shot and the basket is missed and you get
:2 shots and the ball

Something does not add up here

An intentional foul will result in two shots unless the foul was on a missed three point shot in which case 3 free throws will be awarded.

Now in your situation, if B1 taunted after the foul, the calling official might have called an intentional foul and an unsporting T resulting in 4 free throws being shot.

[jargo9]

Originally Posted by grunewar

If you're talking about the Villanova vs WV game it was a good call by the official (IMO). V player had a clear layup and was shoved from the back "intentionally" by the WV player with no intent to play the ball.

It was called against WV, in their home venue, with little to no discussion or argument about the call from the home team.......ok, the fans were none too happy!

I was referring to a high school game last night. I did not see the WV vs Vill game unfortunately.

[jargo9]

Does this not seem to reward a defensive player to foul "harder"(if you will) to ensure that if a flagrant/intentional is called that he doesnt make the basket?

I have also found online that it says the player should receive the 2FT for the intentional and the 2 on the shot. I will try to post the link.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Does this not seem to reward a defensive player to foul "harder"(if you will) to ensure that if a flagrant/intentional is called that he doesnt make the basket?

I have also found online that it says the player should receive the 2FT for the intentional and the 2 on the shot. I will try to post the link.

Whatever you found online is simply not accurate.

And I don't see the logic behind the "reward"...unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally and therefore fouls harder to prevent the basket. If the player is already processing that he's going to foul intentionally, he's probably going to do what he can to prevent the make anyway.

Intentional fouls carry the additional penalty of rewarding the offended team the ball. It's already more severe than a common foul. If the player adds enough "extra" to an intentional foul it can be deemed flagrant, which carries the same on-court penalties plus disqualifies the offending player.

By your logic (rewarding an additional 2 shots if the try is unsuccessful) we should also add one additional shot if the try is successful (one for the 'and 1' and two for the intentional foul).

The rule is pretty clear, and I've never seen an incident that would make me re-think its appropriateness.

[APG]

Originally Posted by jargo9

Does this not seem to reward a defensive player to foul "harder"(if you will) to ensure that if a flagrant/intentional is called that he doesnt make the basket?

I have also found online that it says the player should receive the 2FT for the intentional and the 2 on the shot. I will try to post the link.

I guess that's one way to look at it. You're also giving the ball back to the offense and a potential 4-5 point swing if the shot is unsuccessful. Plus, if you're committing a flagrant foul, you're done for the game. And I've never met a player who thought the reward of ensuring a missed basket on a foul outweighed his opportunity to actually participate in the game. You'll find that most coaches aren't too happy when their players commit intentional/flagrant fouls.

As far as what you found online, if it does indeed say that, it is unequivocally wrong.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by jargo9

I have also found online that it says the player should receive the 2FT for the intentional and the 2 on the shot. I will try to post the link.

I bet the link is to a parent website.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jargo9

1. Does this not seem to reward a defensive player to foul "harder"(if you will) to ensure that if a flagrant/intentional is called that he doesnt make the basket?

2. I have also found online that it says the player should receive the 2FT for the intentional and the 2 on the shot. I will try to post the link.

1. Not really, what it does is reward the offense for making their shot.

2. Don't bother, it's wrong. Consider the following scenarios:

a) A1 goes up for a shot and is fouled by B1. It's team B's 7th foul. Are you going to award bonus FTs for the foul plus two for the shot?
b) B8, sitting on the bench, tells the official what he thinks of the calls. Official calls a T, applying the indirect to the HC. The T is the 10th team foul. Are you going to shoot 2 for the T and 2 for the bonus?

The answer is obviously "no" to both. Every foul gets one penalty, and only one penalty.

[jargo9]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Whatever you found online is simply not accurate.

And I don't see the logic behind the "reward"...unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally and therefore fouls harder to prevent the basket. If the player is already processing that he's going to foul intentionally, he's probably going to do what he can to prevent the make anyway.

Intentional fouls carry the additional penalty of rewarding the offended team the ball. It's already more severe than a common foul. If the player adds enough "extra" to an intentional foul it can be deemed flagrant, which carries the same on-court penalties plus disqualifies the offending player.

By your logic (rewarding an additional 2 shots if the try is unsuccessful) we should also add one additional shot if the try is successful (one for the 'and 1' and two for the intentional foul).

The rule is pretty clear, and I've never seen an incident that would make me re-think its appropriateness.

Not to split hairs here but you said "unless the player knows he's going to foul intentionally " wouldnt by definition the word INTENTIONAL cover him knowing he was going to commit a foul of this nature?

I guess all i am saying is if an intentional/flagrant foul is commited during the non-shooting act the offensive team should not receive the same reward as during the shot(my opinion)