KU @ Texas

[Rich]

I watched the second half while loathing my elliptical machine.

There was a drive to the bucket where the player was gathering, fouled, and finished. The official counted the bucket, correctly. Bob Knight, of course, disagreed with this.

Real time I thought, "They'll go to the monitor and call it a dead ball technical foul" and I was right. There have been a few of these the past week and regardless of the player landing on the Kansas player, I *did* think the elbow came around faster than the torso.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

There was a drive to the bucket where the player was gathering, fouled, and finished. The official counted the bucket, correctly. Bob Knight, of course, disagreed with this.

While the player had ended his dribble, I don't believe that he had done anything to start his shooting motion prior to the foul. I agreed with Knight. This was not a foul in the act of shooting.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

While the player had ended his dribble, I don't believe that he had done anything to start his shooting motion prior to the foul. I agreed with Knight. This was not a foul in the act of shooting.

He was gathering it to start a shooting motion -- to me, that was part of starting the habitual motion that precedes the release of the ball. Matter of fact, I watched it a second time -- the ball was already in both hands and he was in the process of taking it up.

I'm counting that every time.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

He was gathering it to start a shooting motion -- to me, that was part of starting the habitual motion that precedes the release of the ball. Matter of fact, I watched it a second time -- the ball was already in both hands and he was in the process of taking it up.

I'm counting that every time.

How do you know that he wasn't gathering his dribble to pass?

In my opinion, simply gathering the dribble is not enough. The official needs to see some kind of habitual motion that is part of the shooting action prior to the release of a try in order to award FTs.

Just what I take from the rules.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How do you know that he wasn't gathering his dribble to pass?

He didn't pass?

Admittedly, it's a fine line.

I've watched a lot of NCAAM the past few weeks (mostly recorded games as I've been working) and it seems like they are calling more of these shooting fouls than I remember in the past.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Admittedly, it's a fine line.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I've watched a lot of NCAAM the past few weeks (mostly recorded games as I've been working) and it seems like they are calling more of these shooting fouls than I remember in the past.

Yep, this was part of the instruction at the preseason PAC-10 camp. There was a belief that too many fouls which should have been deemed in the act of shooting weren't. I think that the officials are now overcompensating.

Like anything else there will be a pendulum effect and it will find a centering point after a couple of years.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, this was part of the instruction at the preseason PAC-10 camp.

Reminds me of a factoid I heard reported last night: we're in the 5th consecutive week without a PAC-10 team in the top 25.

And CORNELL is #22! Ha! No hoops on the coast I guess!

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, this was part of the instruction at the preseason PAC-10 camp.

It was also part of both the high school and college camps I attended the last two summers. The instruction was pretty clear in both those settings - if the player has "gathered" the ball and after contact continues to attempt his try (ie, doesn't pass the ball) he should be deemed in the act of shooting.

The thought process is that the gathering is actually the start of the habitual shooting motion. (Disclaimer: I'm now going to use non-official terms to discuss the type of try players are attempting.) The discussion was mainly around shots going to the bucket - layups, floaters, runners, etc. The belief was that officials did a good job of recognizing when the shooting motion started on jump shots but not on these "moving" shots and that it actually started much earlier than most of us called it.

It's certainly an interesting discussion and open for interpretation. On a fast break layup is the gathering of the ball the actual start of the try? Makes sense to me, but I can see arguments other ways.