PC or did the push cause it?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Anchor

We're making it too hard. It really doesn't matter what caused what. There is a foul from behind (that he landed on him is a dead giveaway) and there is a player control charge. Foul from behind ball is still live; PC ball becomes dead immediately. False double. Shoot 2 shots with an empty lane and give it to the defense for a throw-in.

The rules don't give us the leeway for what caused what. Live ball-dead ball is pretty much what we have to work with. That the player crashed the defender with a live ball is of little doubt. When the foul from behind happened (my POV is that it happened prior to the crash) is the only thing debatable. Just because he was fouled doesn't give him a free lick at the defender. OTOH, if the PC occurred first, the rear defender got lucky with a free crash.

False double. But you guys will be the only 3 in the gym that have a clue about what's going on.

Just to get your thoughts on a similar false double scenario: what if shooter A1 is going straight up and has defender B1 with LGP to his side. Defender B2 pushes A1 from the side opposite B1. Obvious foul on B2.

Now, the ball is still live and the push from B2 causes A1 to displace and fall on top of B1. What's your call?

IMO, there is no real difference between the OP and my scenario other than your judgement that in the OP the offensive player would have committed the PC regardless of the push...and in that case, the push really didn't put him at any disadvantage, did it?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

what if shooter A1 is going straight up and has defender B1 with LGP to his side.

How can B1 have a legal guarding position to the side of A1?

Gaurding is defined as a defender legally placing their body in the path of an offensive player.

B1 can have a legal position to the side of A1, but not a legal guarding position.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How can B1 have a legal guarding position to the side of A1?

A1's side is toward the basket.

That said, poor choice of words on my part. Just wanted to spur some discussion of when you would actually call both fouls. I agree they can happen. But it's important to be able to clearly demonstrate that a PC foul would have happened regardless and that a push still wasn't incidental if you want to call both.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

A1's side is toward the basket.

So?

The defender still wasn't in A1's path and thus didn't have a LGP.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So?

The defender still wasn't in A1's path and thus didn't have a LGP.

If B1 is defending A1, and A1 is on the lane line just below the block facing the endline, and B1 is between A1 and the basket, I'm going to judge B1 has LGP regardless of the direction A1 is facing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

If B1 is defending A1, and A1 is on the lane line just below the block facing the endline, and B1 is between A1 and the basket, I'm going to judge B1 has LGP regardless of the direction A1 is facing.

And you would be judging incorrectly by rule.

See NFHS rule 4-23-1. Guarding is a defender legally placing their body in the PATH of an offensive opponent. If the defender is at the side, he can't be in the path.

B1 may have a legal position on the floor, but he does not have a legal guarding position. They are 2 completely different concepts.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you would be judging incorrectly by rule.

See NFHS rule 4-23-1. Guarding is a defender legally placing their body in the PATH of an offensive opponent. If the defender is at the side, he can't be in the path.

B1 may have a legal position on the floor, but he does not have a legal guarding position. They are 2 completely different concepts.

Is the only "path" for a player the direction they are facing? Is a post player "backing down" a defender not moving in a direction other than what they are facing? I a guard who slices laterally not going in a path to the side?

It's a somewhat silly conversation at this point as I had a bad description in my initial post and I completely understand the point you are making. That said, since "path" is not defined as only the direction a player's torso is facing (it would be stupid to define it that way) I am perfectly happy with my judgement that the path a player is taking may or may not be the direction they are facing.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Just to get your thoughts on a similar false double scenario: what if shooter A1 is going straight up and has defender B1 with LGP to his side. Defender B2 pushes A1 from the side opposite B1. Obvious foul on B2.

Now, the ball is still live and the push from B2 causes A1 to displace and fall on top of B1. What's your call?

IMO, there is no real difference between the OP and my scenario other than your judgement that in the OP the offensive player would have committed the PC regardless of the push...and in that case, the push really didn't put him at any disadvantage, did it?

IMO you have to look at it as two completely separate acts. If the push from behind put the shooter at a disadvantage without regard to the defender in his path then you have a push on the defense. If you also judge that the player was crashing into the defender regardless of the push then you also have PC, but I would treat them separately.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

IMO you have to look at it as two completely separate acts. If the push from behind put the shooter at a disadvantage without regard to the defender in his path then you have a push on the defense. If you also judge that the player was crashing into the defender regardless of the push then you also have PC, but I would treat them separately.

And if A1 is pushed, I'm 99.94315313413% certain I'll judge the push to have caused the crash. If not, I'm 85% certain I'll judge the "push" to be incidental contact.

Now I'll review the video.

[rfp]

3 bodies crashing to the floor and no whistle at all from the L or C? I think the T did right to come in and get this (looks PC to me), but holy cow -- where were your partners?

[Anchor]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Just to get your thoughts on a similar false double scenario: what if shooter A1 is going straight up and has defender B1 with LGP to his side. Defender B2 pushes A1 from the side opposite B1. Obvious foul on B2.

Now, the ball is still live and the push from B2 causes A1 to displace and fall on top of B1. What's your call?

IMO, there is no real difference between the OP and my scenario other than your judgement that in the OP the offensive player would have committed the PC regardless of the push...and in that case, the push really didn't put him at any disadvantage, did it?

If you actually felt that the push caused the PC crash you could easily treat that crash as incidental. In the scenario of the OP vid, there is nothing incidental about the PC crash. The defender probably fouled from behind. The PC was gonna happen with or without that help. Ball is live, call them both.

Without taking all judgment out of the game, we still got to remember that the pertinent tools we have to work with are live ball, dead ball.

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by Anchor

If you actually felt that the push caused the PC crash you could easily treat that crash as incidental. In the scenario of the OP vid, there is nothing incidental about the PC crash. The defender probably fouled from behind. The PC was gonna happen with or without that help. Ball is live, call them both.

You suggest both fouls be called? So we go double foul?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

You suggest both fouls be called? So we go double foul?

In that situation it would make most sense to go false double, though a case could also be made for simultaneous (approx. the same time).

The fouls weren't committed by opponents on each other, so double is out. I'd go false double. Shooter gets two throws for the foul in the act of shooting with the lane cleared, then B gets the ball for a throw-in from the spot nearest the PC foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I'd go false double. Shooter gets two throws for the foul in the act of shooting with the lane cleared, then B gets the ball for a throw-in from the spot nearest the PC foul.

Spot throw-in even if the second FT was made?

[deecee]

Officiating is more that the rulebook. Sometimes the rulebook and caseplays just dont pan out in real life. You can always be safe and follow them but in those cases you have to be aware of career advancement and what not.

Expectations and interpretations are somewhat different in different parts of the country. 90% of the time it helps to be black or white as an official, but 10% IS grey. That 10% includes a huge majority of Varsity and higher officials.

You can always quote the rule book and be right and officiate the game as such, but in reality you will the exception not the norm. In some cases being the exception is very good and will help, but these are few and far between rather than just because it is in the rulebook you SHOULD do it.

There is more judgement involved than just foul or no foul.