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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 01:45pm
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Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
I might. Along with "fag", "gay" if it's used in an offensive manner, and other such words. These are insults in certain contexts, in the same way that the N word might be. I'm not saying it would be automatic, because I'm not sure there's anything that's automatic, but it would certainly put me in that range.

There are other words that I might react in the same way to, although again it would depend on the context. "Good shot, fatty" said sarcastically by an opponent on an airball, might very well be flagrant. It's the tone of disrespect and bullying that would make this unacceptable. Same would apply to "homo" "fag" and others. Are those words ever said respectfully? Not very often. I'd be looking pretty hard to see if there was any redeeming social value in the situation.
Interesting..I would never say you are wrong, but to me if I have to think about it that much and analyze the context then I am going to err on the side of a regular ol' T before I disqualify a kid and have him sit for another game (mandatory in IL). There are a few words that have that "automatic" ring to them to me, and off the top of my head the only ones that fit the bill are racial or threatening as in "Next time down I'm taking you out". When kids run around all day calling each other names like "homo", "fag", etc, I have a hard time considering them flagrant. Like I said I would never say you are wrong, everyone brings their own set of personal limits to a game ...
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 01:55pm
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Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
Interesting..I would never say you are wrong, but to me if I have to think about it that much and analyze the context then I am going to err on the side of a regular ol' T before I disqualify a kid and have him sit for another game (mandatory in IL). There are a few words that have that "automatic" ring to them to me, and off the top of my head the only ones that fit the bill are racial or threatening as in "Next time down I'm taking you out". When kids run around all day calling each other names like "homo", "fag", etc, I have a hard time considering them flagrant. Like I said I would never say you are wrong, everyone brings their own set of personal limits to a game ...
I'm not saying that it would take me very long in the heat of battle, although I know I tend to be a little touchy about this subject since I have a daughter who is a lesbian, and a son who is gay. So I'd call the T right off, and then be contemplating on the way to the table whether or not it's flagrant. Wouldn't take more than a second or two -- tone of voice, look in eye, reaction of the player who "took" the insult.

Furthermore, I don't like it that kids run around all day calling each other "homo" and "fag". I know the theories that it's all in good fun, but I don't buy it. Even before my kids came out, and for my other two who aren't, they know that this kind of "making fun" is NOT ever okay. There's just too much risk of hurting someone else.

Still, I can't control what kids do most of the time. But it's going to be sharply limited when I'm in charge. Just like the F word. Some refs barely notice. For others, it's automatic. For me this subject is right up there near the top of the list.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 02:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
I'm not saying that it would take me very long in the heat of battle, although I know I tend to be a little touchy about this subject since I have a daughter who is a lesbian, and a son who is gay. So I'd call the T right off, and then be contemplating on the way to the table whether or not it's flagrant. Wouldn't take more than a second or two -- tone of voice, look in eye, reaction of the player who "took" the insult.

Furthermore, I don't like it that kids run around all day calling each other "homo" and "fag". I know the theories that it's all in good fun, but I don't buy it. Even before my kids came out, and for my other two who aren't, they know that this kind of "making fun" is NOT ever okay. There's just too much risk of hurting someone else.

Still, I can't control what kids do most of the time. But it's going to be sharply limited when I'm in charge. Just like the F word. Some refs barely notice. For others, it's automatic. For me this subject is right up there near the top of the list.
And it's not based on my own personal touchiness about how it hurts MY feelings. I had a kid call me a "lesbian" one time, and he meant it as an insult. I looked, and ran past. Next dead ball, his teammate said, "Didn't you hear him call you a lesbian?" I said, "yes". He said, "Aren't you going to give him a T?" I said, "What for?" He said, "Well, he insulted you." I said, "So?" He said, "You mean you are one?" I said, "Well, no, but I don't see it as an insult." They were all baffled! Usually, if the kid MEANS to insult, I would whack just on the tone of voice, but in this case, I think the lesson was better taught in the way I handled it.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 02:19pm
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Question

Juulie - what if the kid had said, "You ref like a girl"? Oh wait - never mind.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 02:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
I'm not saying that it would take me very long in the heat of battle, although I know I tend to be a little touchy about this subject since I have a daughter who is a lesbian, and a son who is gay. So I'd call the T right off, and then be contemplating on the way to the table whether or not it's flagrant. Wouldn't take more than a second or two -- tone of voice, look in eye, reaction of the player who "took" the insult.

Furthermore, I don't like it that kids run around all day calling each other "homo" and "fag". I know the theories that it's all in good fun, but I don't buy it. Even before my kids came out, and for my other two who aren't, they know that this kind of "making fun" is NOT ever okay. There's just too much risk of hurting someone else.

Still, I can't control what kids do most of the time. But it's going to be sharply limited when I'm in charge. Just like the F word. Some refs barely notice. For others, it's automatic. For me this subject is right up there near the top of the list.
Totally understand, that's your prerogative. If I was working with you and you ran a kid for that I would stand behind you, although you would fill out the report. Just goes to show that players need to be careful, what flies with one official isn't going to necessarily fly with another, and you aren't going to get any sympathy with "the last ref didn't throw me out for that!"
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 02:59pm
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Words to me always have to have a context in order for me to give Ts in the first place. Players talking to each other is going to be treated differently than players talking to opponents. That does not mean these things will not be addressed, but you can warn at certain times that can stop a lot of these things from happening in the first place. I think this is such a personal thing and somethings that would be viewed as offensive would be OK to others.

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 04:02pm
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I would have a difficult time tossing someone for words.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
I would have a difficult time tossing someone for words.
Really...one player tells another player "I'll kick your $#%^$% a$$" using a racist/bigoted term in place of '$#%^$% a$$' and you're just gonna write it off as a run-of-the-mill 'T'?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 04:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Words to me always have to have a context in order for me to give Ts in the first place. Players talking to each other is going to be treated differently than players talking to opponents. That does not mean these things will not be addressed, but you can warn at certain times that can stop a lot of these things from happening in the first place. I think this is such a personal thing and somethings that would be viewed as offensive would be OK to others.

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Context for me ,also.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 05:02pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Really...one player tells another player "I'll kick your $#%^$% a$$" using a racist/bigoted term in place of '$#%^$% a$$' and you're just gonna write it off as a run-of-the-mill 'T'?
Why does that have to be flagrant? I agree it can be a T, but flagrant? This is your personal issue, not something that is automatically supported by rule. Which is why the rules are kind of vague (deliberately I believe) on what is or is not a flagrant and even sometimes a T.

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 05:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Why does that have to be flagrant? I agree it can be a T, but flagrant? This is your personal issue, not something that is automatically supported by rule. Which is why the rules are kind of vague (deliberately I believe) on what is or is not a flagrant and even sometimes a T.

Peace
What if a kid says to another kid "next time down I'm taking you out" and you just tech him and the coach leaves him in. Then next time down he DOES take the kid out, do you think you have any liability there? Agreed highly unlikely, just for discussion. Any threat like this is "see ya" for me, if only for this reason.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 05:22pm
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Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
What if a kid says to another kid "next time down I'm taking you out" and you just tech him and the coach leaves him in. Then next time down he DOES take the kid out, do you think you have any liability there? Agreed highly unlikely, just for discussion. Any threat like this is "see ya" for me, if only for this reason.
Here is the problem with your logic here. A kid could say nothing like that and draw a T from me. I have heard things said here by others that claim they would draw an automatic T from them (which are fine by me) but you cannot decide that for me. I do not need words to give a T. I will and have used body language during a contentious moment as a guide without hearing a word.

I will give a better example. I am an African-American male that happens to work a lot of games with other African-American males. There is certain language that is historical or language patterns that are used in the African-American community that are not easily understood by many that are not African-American. And no I am not talking about the simple use of a specific word. I am talking about a series of characterizations that I might recognized that would draw my attention that might never draw the attention of anyone else, but would do so to me and others that are the same race and culture. And even then I have ways of handling those things without giving a T if the right circumstances occur. That is why I said if you want to give a T that is your right. Specific words are not under the rules as illegal and since language constantly changes that is why you get paid the big bucks to make those decisions. But to be critical of people that do not want to give a T because you want to give a T is not as easy as you think.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 05:43pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Here is the problem with your logic here. A kid could say nothing like that and draw a T from me. I have heard things said here by others that claim they would draw an automatic T from them (which are fine by me) but you cannot decide that for me. I do not need words to give a T. I will and have used body language during a contentious moment as a guide without hearing a word.

I will give a better example. I am an African-American male that happens to work a lot of games with other African-American males. There is certain language that is historical or language patterns that are used in the African-American community that are not easily understood by many that are not African-American. And no I am not talking about the simple use of a specific word. I am talking about a series of characterizations that I might recognized that would draw my attention that might never draw the attention of anyone else, but would do so to me and others that are the same race and culture. And even then I have ways of handling those things without giving a T if the right circumstances occur. That is why I said if you want to give a T that is your right. Specific words are not under the rules as illegal and since language constantly changes that is why you get paid the big bucks to make those decisions. But to be critical of people that do not want to give a T because you want to give a T is not as easy as you think.

Peace

I am not trying to be critical at all, didn't mean to come off that way. I was honestly asking a question, if the scenario I proposed were to happen do you think I as an official would have any liability? I think there is a good chance that I may, so I don't think I would take chances in a situation where someone is that explicit. By all means you have to make that judgement for yourself, every official does.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 05:57pm
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Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
I am not trying to be critical at all, didn't mean to come off that way. I was honestly asking a question, if the scenario I proposed were to happen do you think I as an official would have any liability?
Liability for what? What if you did not hear the comments? I gave a double T about 2 weeks ago and I have no idea what the players said to each other. And I never claimed it was for their words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
I think there is a good chance that I may, so I don't think I would take chances in a situation where someone is that explicit. By all means you have to make that judgement for yourself, every official does.
Do you have some legal precedent for this? Is there a court case where an official was held responsible for the actions of a player that said something to another player? Because if that is the case what do you do if you do not hear the comments at all. I realize that we think we know everything as officials, but most of the time I have no idea what players actually say to each other and it really gets hard if you are a loud gym and fans are all over the place.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 01, 2010, 06:13pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Liability for what? What if you did not hear the comments? I gave a double T about 2 weeks ago and I have no idea what the players said to each other. And I never claimed it was for their words.



Do you have some legal precedent for this? Is there a court case where an official was held responsible for the actions of a player that said something to another player? Because if that is the case what do you do if you do not hear the comments at all. I realize that we think we know everything as officials, but most of the time I have no idea what players actually say to each other and it really gets hard if you are a loud gym and fans are all over the place.

Peace
I was only commenting to the scenario I laid out where I heard a player tell another player that and penalized based on what I heard. We can scenario play all day long and the penalty changes in each scenario, but if a player says "next trip I'm taking you out" and I tell a coach that he said that (you can be sure that he is going to ask what his player said), then there isn't a whole lot of wiggle room as far as what was said. If I didn't hear it then I am telling the coach "I didn't hear exactly what was said, but the two had words that I judged to be unsportsmanlike", or something similar and agree with you just issuing a regular tech (or double tech).

To your question about precedent, no I am not a lawyer, but it doesn't seem like much of a leap to me if I fail to protect a kid from an explicit threat that I heard and told someone else that I heard, that I could be liable in some way. Seems more prudent in that case to disqualify and tell the coach and player "Sorry, but I can't let it play out to see if you would really act out what you threatened."
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