How should a newbie handle this?

[KJUmp]

In each of my two most recent HSJV games (2 man) I worked with experienced IABBO board referees. Good refs, good partners, both were very helpful to me before, during, and after the game. Both games went well, no major problems. Not getting to work often with board certified refs, these two games were a great experience for me.
As a newbie, my M/O with experienced officials is to keep my ears open, my mouth shut, hold up my end on the court, listen to whatever advice/tips etc. are offered.
My question is what do you do when your experienced P misapplies a rule?

Game 1-Team A had a player enter the game who was not listed in the book when it was checked at the 10:00 mark prior to the start of the game. P called it a Bench Technical (as opposed to an Administrative Technical) and with it, charged Team A HC with an indirect tech.

Game 2- I'm L and called an intentional foul on Team A. We switch after I report foul, when Team B finished shooting the free throws, P tosses me the ball and says "division line throw in". I know on an intentional foul the throw-in is suppose to be from the spot nearest the foul (end line under B's basket in this case).

In the Game 2 sitch, I did not want to question my P on the court and went with what he told me to do. In Game 1 sitch, I asked P about the sitch (I was confused, and thought that maybe I had missed something), and when I (respectfully) asked..."why was the HC charged with an indirect T on what was an administrative issue", P said that because it happened during the gamer it's a bench technical. I just said..."Oh, OK." I wasn't about to take out my books to see who was right....I didn't feel it was my place as a non-certified newbie to do that with a vet.

This is not about who's right/who's wrong. Nor is it a "gotcha" moment. Plus it's not like I'm a rules expert. I've learned here on the board that we all misapply rules from time to time, no matter how experienced an official someone might be. I'm still trying to learn....so how should I have addressed these sitchs with my partners? Or was just letting it go and learning from their mistake/error the better way to go.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Game 2- I'm L and called an intentional foul on Team A. We switch after I report foul, when Team B finished shooting the free throws, P tosses me the ball and says "division line throw in". I know on an intentional foul the throw-in is suppose to be from the spot nearest the foul (end line under B's basket in this case).

On this one I think especially since you made the call, it would have been only proper to gently remind him of the proper spot. Toss it back. "Intentional foul. Throw-in at the spot."

[refguy]

You learned something ..... years of work don't necessarily make someone good at what they do. It's what you do with those years. To take away the coaching box is a pretty big deal to most coaches. Also, most teams have scoring plays they run from an end-line out of bounds.
I guess the conundrum is do what's right for the game or worry about your partner's hurt feelings.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Game 2- I'm L and called an intentional foul on Team A. We switch after I report foul, when Team B finished shooting the free throws, P tosses me the ball and says "division line throw in". I know on an intentional foul the throw-in is suppose to be from the spot nearest the foul (end line under B's basket in this case).

On Ts, it usually makes sense to get the crew together to be sure all are on the same page regarding the administration. Do this after the reporting, but before any further action takes place.

You could do the same in IPs.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

I've learned here on the board that we all misapply rules from time to time, no matter how experienced an official someone might be.

am I reading too much into this???? I may be out of line, but our board drills into our heads that sure, judgement on calls may be one thing, but we should NEVER kick a rule or it's application!!

I would think that we as officials take pride in the rules and we should especially be 100% on point with rules and their applications.

We kick calls b/c of bad angles, guessing, being out of position, etc., which is one thing, but the mis-application of rules shouldn't happen!

again, i may be reading too much into this, and if i mis-interpreted the statement, i apologize

[KJUmp]

I meant that over the long haul...several seasons. I seen posts here, where officials ask the question (I'm paraphrasing)..."did I/we get this right?" Most of the time, these involve complex situations...not something as simple as what my two P's erred on.
But et me make something quite clear, these are two very good officials who I respect. That they made an error does not make them a poor or incompetent referee. It just means they're human...like all of us. Maybe they had a tough day, got lackadaisical in their thinking, were just too quick, I don't know...but it happened.
What did I learn as a newbie:
1) Stuff like this has happened to me in my first two years, and I kick my butt when I boot a rule application. But one thing I've learned in my 2 years here from the vets...Learn from it and move on. you probably will never make the same mistake again. its part of the process. We've all been through it." I realize that it can happen to any ref at any time no matter what their experience....so always take your time and think things through.
2) Some of the rules are finally starting to stay in my head. That I actually knew what my P's said was incorrect, (to me) is a big step in my development.
3) That I have to learn the an effective way to work with an experienced P to get a sitch right, if there is something amiss. I mean I'm getting paid the same fee by the school to officiate the game just like my P. We're partners. We have to get it right. I need to learn to speak up on something like this in the dressing room either at half time or during our post game. I guess I'm still too much in awe of a partner with a patch, as I'm still working toward earning mine.

[vbzebra]

No harm meant by my post. I DID read too much into it, sorry

You're right, when we make those mistakes, they stick with us and we never make them again (we hope

We're always learning, whether we're just starting out or we are a "vet". Keep working toward that patch!

[vbzebra]

No harm meant by my post. I DID read too much into it, sorry

I see what you mean know by over the long haul. I thought you meant it happens alot more on your board. Sorry for the quick whistle

You're right, when we make those mistakes, they stick with us and we never make them again (we hope

I've screwed up rule applications (like we all have) and realized it afterwards, and there is not a sicker felling to have!

We're always learning, whether we're just starting out or we are a "vet". Keep working toward that patch!

[mbyron]

Part of learning to officiate is learning to deal with various kinds of partners. You learn a lot about a person when he or she makes a mistake, or when you do.

When approaching a partner about a perceived error, try to treat your partner as you'd like to be treated. Generally people are threatened less by questions rather than accusations. You're more likely to get a non-defensive hearing by pulling your partner aside and asking "Hey, are you sure the ball comes in at the division line? I thought for an intentional foul it came in at the spot nearest the foul," rather than shouting across the court, "Hey! Not there! That's totally wrong!"

What your partner does next will tell you about his or her character. Some will puff up and tell you to piss off and mind your own business; some will honestly think you're wrong but listen to you. You have to work as a team to try to get it right. Usually the more veteran official will prevail -- that's OK, and no system is perfectly reliable. Make your case and look it up when you get home. Don't claim more knowledge than you actually have.

And if a coach complains, your team is on the same page no matter whose page that is: "Coach, we talked about it and this is what we decided. We're all working hard to improve."

[Nevadaref]

I've learned that people do not like to have their mistakes pointed out.

Therefore, in your position, you are better off to let the vet do as he wishes and not even bring it up, even though it is incorrect and not right for the game.

It is unfortunate, but people will hold a grudge against you for years for correcting them.

* I know the advice given in this post is downright cowardly, but sadly it's also true.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

No harm meant by my post. I DID read too much into it, sorry

I see what you mean know by over the long haul. I thought you meant it happens alot more on your board. Sorry for the quick whistle

You're right, when we make those mistakes, they stick with us and we never make them again (we hope

I've screwed up rule applications (like we all have) and realized it afterwards, and there is not a sicker felling to have!

We're always learning, whether we're just starting out or we are a "vet". Keep working toward that patch!

Thanks!

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Part of learning to officiate is learning to deal with various kinds of partners. You learn a lot about a person when he or she makes a mistake, or when you do.

When approaching a partner about a perceived error, try to treat your partner as you'd like to be treated. Generally people are threatened less by questions rather than accusations. You're more likely to get a non-defensive hearing by pulling your partner aside and asking "Hey, are you sure the ball comes in at the division line? I thought for an intentional foul it came in at the spot nearest the foul," rather than shouting across the court, "Hey! Not there! That's totally wrong!"

What your partner does next will tell you about his or her character. Some will puff up and tell you to piss off and mind your own business; some will honestly think you're wrong but listen to you. You have to work as a team to try to get it right. Usually the more veteran official will prevail -- that's OK, and no system is perfectly reliable. Make your case and look it up when you get home. Don't claim more knowledge than you actually have.

And if a coach complains, your team is on the same page no matter whose page that is: "Coach, we talked about it and this is what we decided. We're all working hard to improve."

Great advice.
I like that approach...it covers all the angles, makes no one look bad, makes the crew look like they're together on whatever the call is, and gives a newbie a good safe ground for dealing with what could be a "sensitive" situation with the wrong type of veteran partner.
Thanks.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I've learned that people do not like to have their mistakes pointed out.

Therefore, in your position, you are better off to let the vet do as he wishes and not even bring it up, even though it is incorrect and not right for the game.

It is unfortunate, but people will hold a grudge against you for years for correcting them.

* I know the advice given in this post is downright cowardly, but sadly it's also true.

Nevada,
That's exactly what I was afraid of. Again, I respect both of these officials, but what you said in your post is what made me tread lightly with each of them.
Thanks for calling it like you see it....and like it is in the real world of officiating.

[Jeremy Hohn]

I have had a simliar situation that occured in a heated district game last week. We had a "pass and crash" that occured in the first half, which by rule, is a team control foul and no free throws should be attempted. I came to my calling official and as he was reporting the foul I reminded him "team control, spot throw in" and we got it right with no lining up of free throws by mistake or clearing the lane.

Second half we have the same play, going against the other team. I tried to use the same approach to a Division 1 official and he INSISTED that we shoot because the player passed the ball. I reminded him that the rule changed, and we now have team control, but he REINSISTED and I backed down. Needless to say, the coaches after the game noticed and I wrote the apologetic email with the scanned page from the case book indicating the EXACT play and how it should be called.

It really was my fault for not putting my "R" accountable for a good pre-game and 'assuming' that because he was a 20 yr official, that he didn't need one. Heck I am a 17 yr, and still need some brushing up from the case or rule book on regular occassions. Never be "too good" or "uncoachable" regardless of what aspirations you have in officiating. I have seen many officials who thought they were "great" officials, attend 1 camp, get ripped because of how they were not working the 3 person correctly, and they never go back. Then they are the same ones that sit in meetings that are supposed to be "the cream of the association" but never crack a rule book open for 5 years and young officials continue to put them on a pedastal because they sit at the large table in front of the meeting room.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hohn

I have had a simliar situation that occured in a heated district game last week. We had a "pass and crash" that occured in the first half, which by rule, is a team control foul and no free throws should be attempted. I came to my calling official and as he was reporting the foul I reminded him "team control, spot throw in" and we got it right with no lining up of free throws by mistake or clearing the lane.

Second half we have the same play, going against the other team. I tried to use the same approach to a Division 1 official and he INSISTED that we shoot because the player passed the ball. I reminded him that the rule changed, and we now have team control, but he REINSISTED and I backed down. Needless to say, the coaches after the game noticed and I wrote the apologetic email with the scanned page from the case book indicating the EXACT play and how it should be called.

It really was my fault for not putting my "R" accountable for a good pre-game and 'assuming' that because he was a 20 yr official, that he didn't need one. Heck I am a 17 yr, and still need some brushing up from the case or rule book on regular occassions. Never be "too good" or "uncoachable" regardless of what aspirations you have in officiating. I have seen many officials who thought they were "great" officials, attend 1 camp, get ripped because of how they were not working the 3 person correctly, and they never go back. Then they are the same ones that sit in meetings that are supposed to be "the cream of the association" but never crack a rule book open for 5 years and young officials continue to put them on a pedastal because they sit at the large table in front of the meeting room.

Good advice for a newbie to remember. Interesting story...esp. the part about your "R" accountability. One of the refs assigned to the V game that followed a recent JV game I worked related a story where he was R in a D2.
On the crew was a more experienced D2 official, there was a sitch where the R "deferred" to the more experienced guy. The R was taken to task by the evaluator (a D1 guy), privately, for not taking action/accountability as the R.