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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:33pm
#thereferee99
 
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We kicked it. Did I do enough?

GV. 3rd quarter. I'm Lead. Team A has a try from the opposite side of the floor from me.
Ball hits up top (I'm eyeing rebounding action) caroms, tip, bat, scramble, bat (last bat by A1 knocks ball into back court. A2 recovers ball in back court. Partner calls backcourt violation.

I get to my partner. "Partner, we had a try... did Team A have team control after the try?" He replies, "Yes, they had team control." Me, "you're sure?" Him, "yes".

I go to the throw-in spot and bounce the ball to the thrower.

After the game I tell him I think we kicked that one. He says that yeah, he guesses we did.

If it was a critical moment in the game, I would have probably slowed him down more, maybe review the sequence of events and try to get the correct outcome.

Any advice on language/techniques to get partner amenable to changing? Seems that in the moment he was committed to his call, and not eager to analyze.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:37pm
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last touched, first touched....backcourt, in my opinion....
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:41pm
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You could have asked your partner if any player on team A held or dribbled the ball after the try and before it was batted into the backcourt. That would have given both of you a definitive answer.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarecrow View Post
last touched, first touched....backcourt, in my opinion....
Wrong. No team control, no violation.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarecrow View Post
last touched, first touched....backcourt, in my opinion....
But what else do you have to have? Team control. It doesn't sound as if there was team control.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:43pm
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In the couple times where establishment of TC is a factor, I don't ask if there's team control - I ask "Did a player from A control the ball?"

This requires the other official to determine if any specific player controlled the ball.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:45pm
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"Partner, she never came close to controlling the ball, she only batted it. Are you sure you're happy with the call?"
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by referee99 View Post
GV. 3rd quarter. I'm Lead. Team A has a try from the opposite side of the floor from me.
Ball hits up top (I'm eyeing rebounding action) caroms, tip, bat, scramble, bat (last bat by A1 knocks ball into back court. A2 recovers ball in back court. Partner calls backcourt violation.

I get to my partner. "Partner, we had a try... did Team A have team control after the try?" He replies, "Yes, they had team control." Me, "you're sure?" Him, "yes".

I go to the throw-in spot and bounce the ball to the thrower.

After the game I tell him I think we kicked that one. He says that yeah, he guesses we did.

If it was a critical moment in the game, I would have probably slowed him down more, maybe review the sequence of events and try to get the correct outcome.

Any advice on language/techniques to get partner amenable to changing? Seems that in the moment he was committed to his call, and not eager to analyze.
Tough one, I've been that guy not eager to analyze, I've learned to slow down and digest the information offered. Sounds like you did as well as you could have.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 12:53pm
SAK SAK is offline
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You know the call was kicked. That is not the point of this post. I think that you did about all that you can do. You asked your partner if he was sure and you were trying to seek clarification.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 01:00pm
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"partner, when did Team A establish/regain team control?"....
"team control requires actual possesion of the ball or control of the ball, i.e. dribbling...did any player on Team have possession? did any player control the ball while dribbling? this is a critical point in the game...are you SURE that Team A had control?"

if your partner does not change his call, then it is a judgement call that may or may not come back to haunt him.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 01:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarecrow View Post
last touched, first touched....backcourt, in my opinion....
Missing one critical and required component:
NO TEAM CONTROL established after try

keep readng for further reinforcement of this concept...
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 01:08pm
#thereferee99
 
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I like this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffpea View Post
"partner, when did Team A establish/regain team control?"....

if your partner does not change his call, then it is a judgement call that may or may not come back to haunt him.
... as it forces them to think of controlling action. Puts onus on them to back up their call.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 01:16pm
#thereferee99
 
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I like this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
"Partner, she never came close to controlling the ball, she only batted it. Are you sure you're happy with the call?"
... because you are stating your objection to the call but without saying "you are wrong".

Could also go with a mixture (with JeffPea) of
"Partner, I never saw them REGAIN team control, only batting. When did you see them hold or dribble?"
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 01:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianaref View Post
Wrong. No team control, no violation.
Just a thought... if the ball was batted in an attempt to get the ball away from the defense or to a teammate, wouldn't that be considered a controlled pass?

We had this happen in my Boys Freshmen game on Wednesday. I'm trail, my partner's lead. A is offense, B is defense. Shot goes up, misses, players trying to rebound and eventually the ball gets to the floor and someone just batted the ball to the backcourt. I couldn't see who it was, as it was outside the lane opposite to me where my partner would have had the better view. Ball goes almost to the opposite endline and the A1 regained possession. Not having any clue if there was any absolute team control I didn't blow anything and left that up to my partner to call. He blew his whistle and called backcourt. We got together and I asked him what he saw as I couldn't see anything. He said that the ball was on the ground and during the "fight for the ball" A2 pushed the ball into the back court with one hand. I told him good call, as it was with intent to get it away from the opponents and to a teammate.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 02:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
Just a thought... if the ball was batted in an attempt to get the ball away from the defense or to a teammate, wouldn't that be considered a controlled pass?
No.
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