I think I kicked it.

[Hartsy]

Had an overtime game last night, 8th Grade Boys. My partner was starting his 2nd season. Considering I'm only starting my 4th, we did well in a hard played, back and forth game. Yeah, there were a few hiccups, but overall it was good. Until ...... the overtime tipoff.

I thought I checked the way the teams were positioned for the jump and I know I reminded them that they were to play the same basket. Up goes the toss, the tip goes behind me, and a quick whistle from my partner. Backcourt violation on white! He went the wrong way! I set up for Blue, and all but the thrower head toward the wrong basket. YIKES.

So I get with partner to confirm he called a backcourt violation on white, not a carry (his signals for the two looked much alike). It was a backcourt violation. Apparently everyone but us was playing the wrong basket.

Our solution was to reset the clock and tip again. After the game, it occurred to me that we should have given white the ball, since they had the original tip, put the teams in the right direction, and leave the clock alone.

Kicked it? Any difference if only some of the players knew the right basket? If only the jumpers were lined up improperly?

At least White got the second tip.

[Scrapper1]

If you gave the correct instructions and made a proper toss and the kids are just brain-dead, that's their problem. Backcourt violation. And play on.

[bob jenkins]

If everyone was going the wrong way, then the wrong way was the right way, and it shouldn't have been a violation. It then becomes an inadvertant whistle and white gets the ball back (going the real right way).

If the umpers were lined up correctly, then maybe only the white player who got the tip was confused. A back couort violation is the correct call.

I don't see any way to rejump.

The good news is that you'll double check the direction in your next OT game.

[Junker]

Anything below high school I always make sure to indicate which way the teams are going before the toss. This is not an actual mechanic, but it saved some problems more than once.

[tomegun]

It is hard to tell because you seem to be talking around the issue; did you have the jumpers lined up the wrong way or not? If so, I can't understand why you jumped again to fix your - and your partner's - mistake. If you (both of you) let them line up the wrong way and white violated, it should be a violation and the other team should get the ball.

A few things jump out at me that put a ? in my head and makes me think you might want to take your head out of the book and get a feel for the game.

1. How can the non-jumpers be lined up improperly? You mentioned "If only the jumpers were lined up improperly?" I thought only the jumpers had a proper way to be lined up.
2. You mentioned your partner's back court and carry signals looked alike. Is there really a difference? The back court/carry signal is one of the signals I hate (block is the other one) as a man, but I thought those were the same signal. How would they be different? Depending on the gym, this is one area where I feel officials should use their voice; too many officials are too quiet IMO.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Junker

Anything below high school I always make sure to indicate which way the teams are going before the toss. This is not an actual mechanic, but it saved some problems more than once.

Junker,
How do you know "it saved some problems more than once" ?

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by tomegun

It is hard to tell because you seem to be talking around the issue; did you have the jumpers lined up the wrong way or not? If so, I can't understand why you jumped again to fix your - and your partner's - mistake. If you (both of you) let them line up the wrong way and white violated, it should be a violation and the other team should get the ball.

A few things jump out at me that put a ? in my head and makes me think you might want to take your head out of the book and get a feel for the game.

1. How can the non-jumpers be lined up improperly? You mentioned "If only the jumpers were lined up improperly?" I thought only the jumpers had a proper way to be lined up.
2. You mentioned your partner's back court and carry signals looked alike. Is there really a difference? The back court/carry signal is one of the signals I hate (block is the other one) as a man, but I thought those were the same signal. How would they be different? Depending on the gym, this is one area where I feel officials should use their voice; too many officials are too quiet IMO.

I'm not sure what happened to create the problem. When I tossed the ball, in my mind, everything was set up properly and the kids knew where they were going.

1) What I meant by the non-jumpers lined up improperly was they were positioned and set to play at the wrong basket. Poorly worded on my part. This would be hard to do if the jumpers were in the proper position.

2) Backcourt and carry same signal ??? Nope.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

2) Backcourt and carry same signal ??? Nope.

Actually, they (signals #20 & 21) are about as close as you can get. I don't have a clue what the difference is.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Actually, they (signals #20 & 21) are about as close as you can get. I don't have a clue what the difference is.

JR, the difference is how you start them. Illegal dribble/Carry you are using more of your wraist. Backcourt more of the lower portion of your arm(Forearm). Start with your forearm parallel to the floor palm down; rotate until palm is facing skyward and then back to original position. This is the actually backcourt signal. It's true; It's true!!!

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by truerookie

JR, the difference is how you start them. Illegal dribble/Carry you are using more of your wraist. Backcourt more of the lower portion of your arm(Forearm). Start with your forearm parallel to the floor palm down; rotate until palm is facing skyward and then back to original position. This is the actually backcourt signal. It's true; It's true!!!

Are you serious? I know what you mean, but they are still really the same thing. I looked at the NCAA book, which I have on my work computer, and they are the same signal.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

2) Backcourt and carry same signal ??? Nope.

How do you signal a Backcourt? How do you signal a carry? I use the same signal.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How do you signal a Backcourt? How do you signal a carry? I use the same signal.

I use mechanic #20 for palming/carrying the ball and mechanic #21 for a Backcourt violation (over and back, as listed in the book).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tjones1

I use mechanic #20 for palming/carrying the ball and mechanic #21 for a Backcourt violation (over and back, as listed in the book).

Sorry, I was referring to Hartsy's comment and asking specifically how Hartsy signals the two events thinking they are not the same signal.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How do you signal a Backcourt? How do you signal a carry? I use the same signal.

They do look similar, and in fact see many officials that use the same signal for both. But as Jurassic said before, they are listed as two different signals.

I'll look closer at the rulebook, but from what I recall and what I observe from others, there is no need to have a palm up when signalling a backcourt, whereas you want to do that for a carry.

Think of a carry signal as a demonstration, without the ball, of what was done. A backcourt violation signal is more just moving your hand, palm down, from left to right (frontcourt/backcourt) as if you had it on a ball and were rocking it back and forth.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by mick

Junker,
How do you know "it saved some problems more than once" ?

Good point Mick. I must be seeing things that aren't there. I hope my partners don't noticed in my V games tonight.