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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 06:52pm
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I Think I Blew One Today ???

A1 jumps, with both feet off the ground, to try for a goal. He then sees that B1 will certainly block his shot, so he pulls down his try. Gravity takes over and pulls A1 back to the floor, B1 lightly puts his hand on the ball, but not hard enough to prevent A1 from continuing his try. A1 returns to the floor. I call A1 for a traveling violation.

Now this play would have been a lot easier if A1, seeing that his try would be blocked, dropped the ball on purpose and then became the first player to touch it after the ball hit the floor. Traveling.

This play also would have been a lot easier to call if A1 had not pulled down his shot attempt, but rather, continued his attempt, and then B1 placed a hand on the ball preventing the shot from occurring, and A1 returned to the floor with the ball in his hands. Held ball.

The reason that A1 returned to the floor was that he chose to do so. That's why I came up with a travel. Now I'm having second thoughts. Comments ?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 06:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A1 jumps, with both feet off the ground, to try for a goal. He then sees that B1 will certainly block his shot, so he pulls down his try. Gravity takes over and pulls A1 back to the floor, B1 lightly puts his hand on the ball, but not hard enough to prevent A1 from continuing his try. A1 returns to the floor. I call A1 for a traveling violation.

Now this play would have been a lot easier if A1, seeing that his try would be blocked, dropped the ball on purpose and then became the first player to touch it after the ball hit the floor. Traveling.

This play also would have been a lot easier to call if A1 had not pulled down his shot attempt, but rather, continued his attempt, and then B1 placed a hand on the ball preventing the shot from occurring, and A1 returned to the floor with the ball in his hands. Held ball.

The reason that A1 returned to the floor was that he chose to do so. That's why I came up with a travel. Now I'm having second thoughts. Comments ?
From the images I tried to make from your statement, it seems to be a travel violation to me. But if the player put his hands on the ball before A stepped back down onto the floor, I probably would have called held ball and go to the AP. This seems to be one of those "you had to be there" moments.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 08:10pm
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Sounds borderline. You have rules justification for a travel, but I think that in such a borderline case I'd be inclined to go with the "expected" call here.
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Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 09:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A1 jumps, with both feet off the ground, to try for a goal. He then sees that B1 will certainly block his shot, so he pulls down his try. Gravity takes over and pulls A1 back to the floor, B1 lightly puts his hand on the ball, but not hard enough to prevent A1 from continuing his try. A1 returns to the floor. I call A1 for a traveling violation.

Now this play would have been a lot easier if A1, seeing that his try would be blocked, dropped the ball on purpose and then became the first player to touch it after the ball hit the floor. Traveling.

This play also would have been a lot easier to call if A1 had not pulled down his shot attempt, but rather, continued his attempt, and then B1 placed a hand on the ball preventing the shot from occurring, and A1 returned to the floor with the ball in his hands. Held ball.

The reason that A1 returned to the floor was that he chose to do so. That's why I came up with a travel. Now I'm having second thoughts. Comments ?
So, to summarize, A1 jumps and returns to the floor while holding the ball, even though he could have released it?

Sure sounds like travelling to me.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 09:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
So, to summarize, A1 jumps and returns to the floor while holding the ball, even though he could have released it?

Sure sounds like travelling to me.
Agree, AKA case book play 4.44.3SitA(c).
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Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 10:32pm
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4.44.3.a ...

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 11:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A1 jumps, with both feet off the ground, to try for a goal. He then sees that B1 will certainly block his shot, so he pulls down his try. Gravity takes over and pulls A1 back to the floor, B1 lightly puts his hand on the ball, but not hard enough to prevent A1 from continuing his try. A1 returns to the floor. I call A1 for a traveling violation.

Now this play would have been a lot easier if A1, seeing that his try would be blocked, dropped the ball on purpose and then became the first player to touch it after the ball hit the floor. Traveling.

This play also would have been a lot easier to call if A1 had not pulled down his shot attempt, but rather, continued his attempt, and then B1 placed a hand on the ball preventing the shot from occurring, and A1 returned to the floor with the ball in his hands. Held ball.

The reason that A1 returned to the floor was that he chose to do so. That's why I came up with a travel. Now I'm having second thoughts. Comments ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.
You nailed it!

Nice call, sir.
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Old Sun Jan 24, 2010, 05:03pm
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Nice Call, But Just Dumb Luck ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You nailed it!
Thanks, but not really, it was just "dumb luck".

Followup question: Does this "Mythbuster" list passage:
When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt...

... need any changes because of this:
4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

I like to keep this list as accurate, and as up to date, as possible. Help.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 24, 2010, 06:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks, but not really, it was just "dumb luck".

Followup question: Does this "Mythbuster" list passage:
When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt...

... need any changes because of this:
4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

I like to keep this list as accurate, and as up to date, as possible. Help.
There's a fine line between "touching and dropping" and "slapping it out of his hands." When it doubt, go with the latter.

And, no, that doesn't mean you need to climb up on top of anything.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 24, 2010, 06:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks, but not really, it was just "dumb luck".

Followup question: Does this "Mythbuster" list passage:
When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt...
1) Releases sounds like an intentional act. I think you want something that indicates the defense caused this, such as "loses control becasue fo the block."

2) (a) you don't need the ", or not" ("whether" is sufficient); (b) if the defense touches the ball and then it's dropped, it's travelling; if the ball is dropped and then it's touched, I'd have nothing.
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Old Sun Jan 24, 2010, 07:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks, but not really, it was just "dumb luck".

Followup question: Does this "Mythbuster" list passage:
When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt...

... need any changes because of this:
4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

I like to keep this list as accurate, and as up to date, as possible. Help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
1) Releases sounds like an intentional act. I think you want something that indicates the defense caused this, such as "loses control becasue of the block." 2) (a) you don't need the ", or not" ("whether" is sufficient); (b) if the defense touches the ball and then it's dropped, it's travelling; if the ball is dropped and then it's touched, I'd have nothing.
How does this sound? Are all situations involving this "up and down" play covered?

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Mon Jan 25, 2010, 07:40pm
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Up And Down Myth ???

Here's the "old" paragraph clearing up the "up and down" myth:
When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt.

Here's the "new revised" paragraph clearing up the "up and down" myth:
When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Suggestions? Comments?
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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