I blew it!

[zebraman]

Officiating a JV boys summer league earlier this evening: Great game, with 3 seconds left in the first overtime and coming out of a time-out after Team A had scored to tie it up. Team B has a "run the endline" throw-in and has to go the length of the floor. I remind the scorekeeper to not start the clock until he sees me chop time. I hand the ball to B1 for the throw-in because A1 is pressuring. B1 passed the ball to B2 so I chop time. Then I realize that B2 is out of bounds along the endline and I should not have chopped time. What a rookie mistake! B2 throws to B3 who takes a couple dribbles and the horn goes off before he can launch a long 3-pointer. Everyone stops.

I negotiate a "do-over" and had no problem selling it to both coaches but of course Team B's "surprise play" is now shot to heck and they don't get a shot off on the "do-over." What a bonehead play! Everyone was fine afterwards because it had been a well-played game and great sportsmanship, but I sure beat myself up on the way home. Yeah, Team A won in the second (sudden death) overtime.

A humbled Z

[RookieDude]

Don't beat yourself up to bad z. The fact that you talked with the Coaches and explained your mistake shows that you have good game management skills.
Besides, what are the odds that the kid would have made the long 3-pointer with 3 seconds left?
(Kobe Bryant excluded)

[JRutledge]

We all make mistakes. It will not be the first time and it sure as heck will not be the last.

I have been there for sure.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by zebraman
Officiating a JV boys summer league earlier this evening: Great game, with 3 seconds left in the first overtime and coming out of a time-out after Team A had scored to tie it up. Team B has a "run the endline" throw-in and has to go the length of the floor. I remind the scorekeeper to not start the clock until he sees me chop time. I hand the ball to B1 for the throw-in because A1 is pressuring. B1 passed the ball to B2 so I chop time. Then I realize that B2 is out of bounds along the endline and I should not have chopped time. What a rookie mistake! B2 throws to B3 who takes a couple dribbles and the horn goes off before he can launch a long 3-pointer. Everyone stops.

I negotiate a "do-over" and had no problem selling it to both coaches but of course Team B's "surprise play" is now shot to heck and they don't get a shot off on the "do-over." What a bonehead play! Everyone was fine afterwards because it had been a well-played game and great sportsmanship, but I sure beat myself up on the way home. Yeah, Team A won in the second (sudden death) overtime.

A humbled Z

This play caused about a 12 page thread in the past.

Some said do over citing 2-3.

Some said adjusting time to where the ball was at the horn.

Some felt that since this was an official's error it cannot be corrected citing casebook plays for 5-10.

It got pretty nasty.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by zebraman
Officiating a JV boys summer league earlier this evening: Great game, with 3 seconds left in the first overtime and coming out of a time-out after Team A had scored to tie it up. Team B has a "run the endline" throw-in and has to go the length of the floor. I remind the scorekeeper to not start the clock until he sees me chop time. I hand the ball to B1 for the throw-in because A1 is pressuring. B1 passed the ball to B2 so I chop time. Then I realize that B2 is out of bounds along the endline and I should not have chopped time. What a rookie mistake! B2 throws to B3 who takes a couple dribbles and the horn goes off before he can launch a long 3-pointer. Everyone stops.

I negotiate a "do-over" and had no problem selling it to both coaches but of course Team B's "surprise play" is now shot to heck and they don't get a shot off on the "do-over." What a bonehead play! Everyone was fine afterwards because it had been a well-played game and great sportsmanship, but I sure beat myself up on the way home. Yeah, Team A won in the second (sudden death) overtime.

A humbled Z

I am curious, why did you have a "do over?" It appears that the Timer started correctly because B3 was able to take a couple of dribbles before horn sounded.

The fact is that no matter whether the Timer started the clock when the Trail official chopped time in, or whether the Timer started the clock when B3 touched B2's pass, this is not a "do over."

If the game officials have definite knowledge that B3 dribbled the ball for three or more seconds before the horn sounded, the game is over.

If the game officials have definite knowledge that B3 dribbled the ball less than three seconds when the horn sounded then Team B gets the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot on the court where B3 was dribbling the ball when the horn sounded. The key in this situation is to determine how much time should be put on the clock for the Team B's throw-in.

As far as incorrectly chopping time in, do not be too hard on yourself. That is why officials officiate summer league basketball: it is paid practice. It allows officials to try new things and to be paid to practice.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]

1) The fact is.....

2) If the game officials have definite knowledge that B3 dribbled the ball less than three seconds when the horn sounded then Team B gets the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot on the court where B3 was dribbling the ball when the horn sounded.

[/B][/QUOTE]1) Please replace "fact" with "my own personal theory". It most definitely is NOT a "fact" just because you happen to think something may be right! The only "fact" available on this one is that the rule book can be interpreted in different ways.

2) Ain't gonna get into this again except to say that I think you're consistent anyway. Wrong, but consistent.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 9th, 2004 at 10:16 AM]

[Robmoz]

Well, being that it is a summer league I would assume that the purpose of the league is for training. This goes not only for the players but the officials as well. Use it as a learning tool.

[ChuckElias]

After searching for a long time (without a search function, I might add ), I discovered that the thread where this was discussed at length was deleted.

My opinion is that you blow the play dead as soon as it is caught inbounds, remove 0.3 seconds from the time that remained at the beginning of the play, and put the ball back in play at the spot closest to where it was when you blew the whistle.

I could easily be persuaded to take a full second off the game clock (accounting for lag time). I think the "do-over" approach is incorrect for a sanctioned HS or NCAA game. Although, as somebody else pointed out, this was summer league, so it doesn't matter too much, as long as everybody can live with it. As always, just my opinion.

Read the original posting folks. The trail official made an error in timing by chopping the clock while the ball was still out of bounds. Definite knowledge would be that 3 seconds will be on the clock when the restart occurs. Taking off any time would be another error compounding the original error.

[Hawks Coach]

A couple of dribbles is not generally 3 seconds in any game I have seen. MTD is right about definite knowledge, and you can fight all day about whether you restart with 1.5 seconds (or whatever it would be) from around half court (my preference in this situation) or whether you have a do-over (questionable by rule and probably more of a penalty at this point to team with ball since they showed their last minute, length of court play already).

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Ref Ump Welsch
Read the original posting folks. The trail official made an error in timing by chopping the clock while the ball was still out of bounds. Definite knowledge would be that 3 seconds will be on the clock when the restart occurs. Taking off any time would be another error compounding the original error.

Definite knowledge means you know that 3 seconds did not legally pass before the horn went off. You need that to do anything in this situation. As for the do-over, you have no rule support for it, so some would argue that you are compounding the origianl error by deviating from the rules. Unfortunately, there is no great way to fix this. These are the kind of mistakes you hope to avoid, but don't kill yourself if they happen, because they will sometime.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

My opinion is that you blow the play dead as soon as it is caught inbounds, remove 0.3 seconds from the time that remained at the beginning of the play, and put the ball back in play at the spot closest to where it was when you blew the whistle.

I could easily be persuaded to take a full second off the game clock (accounting for lag time). I think the "do-over" approach is incorrect for a sanctioned HS or NCAA game.

Remove three-tenths of a second? Why?

You had to start all over again, didn't you? %$#@%^$#^!

Folks, please note that you can argue this one until the BoSox blow another year. Won't matter. There is NO definitive answer in the rule book for this type of play. It can be argued several ways, but not decisively.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
[/B]

As for the do-over, you have no rule support for it, so some would argue that you are compounding the origianl error by deviating from the rules.
[/B][/QUOTE]As there is also no rules support to allow for a throw-in and time adjustment up court.

Ad infitum. Ad nauseum.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 9th, 2004 at 11:19 AM]

[Hawks Coach]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Folks, please note that you can argue this one until the BoSox blow another year.

At least this way we know the discussion won't last much past September

Could save a lot of server space.

[lrpalmer3]

1. It's good to hear that other refs are out there making bonehead mistakes. Sometimes I feel like the only one who does it.

2. The first couple responses showed a lot of support, which was also good to see. I love you guys/gals. Sniffle sniffle.

Mistakes made involving the clock in the last couple seconds are my WORST nightmare. Whether I make the mistake or the timer, I dread the day a game is directly decided by that mistake.

When less then 10 seconds are left, I try to visibly count just in case. Anybody else have any suggestions? Maybe the count shouldn't be visible?