Opinions....thoughts

[slow whistle]

Yeah you guys are right, went back and looked again and I do see the arm grab - and the elbow looks to be the result of the momentum caused by the grab and subsequent body spin. Foul on red that's about it - again unless you judge that the spin and elbow by white was intentional. In which case you could have a false double with the second half being flagrant and ejection.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Yeah you guys are right, went back and looked again and I do see the arm grab - and the elbow looks to be the result of the momentum caused by the grab and subsequent body spin. Foul on red that's about it - again unless you judge that the spin and elbow by white was intentional. In which case you could have a false double with the second half being flagrant and ejection.

Agreed. I would just have the common foul on red from my six-replays look.

[jeffpea]

for those of you that said she lost conciousness, can i ask what medical school you attended which trained you to make that diagnosis from the chair in front of your computer screen?

while you may play the role of basketball official many evenings during the winter, don't pretend to be a medical professional....if you have a question about it, ask the trainer/medical staff at the game; don't make that judgement on your own.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

for those of you that said she lost conciousness, can i ask what medical school you attended which trained you to make that diagnosis from the chair in front of your computer screen?

while you may play the role of basketball official many evenings during the winter, don't pretend to be a medical professional....if you have a question about it, ask the trainer/medical staff at the game; don't make that judgement on your own.

2-8-5: Determine when a player is apparently unconscious. Teh player may not return to play in the game without written authorization from a physician (MD/OD).

That's what I need to give me the authority to tell the coach that the player isn't coming back in without a doctor's note.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

for those of you that said she lost conciousness, can i ask what medical school you attended which trained you to make that diagnosis from the chair in front of your computer screen?

while you may play the role of basketball official many evenings during the winter, don't pretend to be a medical professional....if you have a question about it, ask the trainer/medical staff at the game; don't make that judgement on your own.

I usually agree with everything you say, but the rules say that we can determine a player is unconscious. Now we may not be totally accurate, but all that is required for them to play is a verification of their health and fortunately or unfortunately we are given that responsibility here. And for the record this is a NF policy in other rules like Football and Baseball (I would assume that this is also the case in other NF rulebooks for different sports) that I work that uses the same language and puts officials/umpires in the same responsibility for making this determination. I also think this is so that coaches do not just bring back in players that clearly have been hurt and since being unconscious deals mostly with the brain or overall health of a person, the NF wants a doctor to verify that a player is not let back in too soon. I would honestly hope that a coach was more responsible for this, but somewhere coaches must have put players back in the game when they were not medically cleared or ready to participate.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would honestly hope that a coach was more responsible for this, but somewhere coaches must have put players back in the game when they were not medically cleared or ready to participate.

Peace

Like maybe Texas Tech?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Like maybe Texas Tech?

And he had medical backing by a trainer. But this example just shows how this is a slippery slope if we give only coaches the responsibility to make these decisions.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And he had medical backing by a trainer. But this example just shows how this is a slippery slope if we give only coaches the responsibility to make these decisions.

Peace

I wouldn't say he had backing so much as the acquiescence of a trainer in his employ. But you're right, and that was why I brought it up.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

....rules say that we can determine a player is unconscious. Now we may not be totally accurate, but all that is required for them to play is a verification of their health and fortunately or unfortunately we are given that responsibility here. And for the record this is a NF policy in other rules like Football and Baseball (I would assume that this is also the case in other NF rulebooks for different sports) that I work that uses the same language and puts officials/umpires in the same responsibility for making this determination.
Peace

The NFHS Soccer rule is very similar. I had an interesting situation in a Sectional Final. Players collided in the air "knocking" heads. This occurred right in front of my spectator side Assistant Referee. The AR told me the visiting player stated "I was out for a second." I informed the coach, and requested a sub. At half time an adult came to me with the player. He said he was an MD, he gave me a paper that had 5 or so little stick figures drawn on it indicating each "test" he had preformed on the player. At the bottom was his address, the date and his Signature. I allowed the player to play in the second half. Filed a report with the State after the game and I still have the signed note. The MD was a fan of the Home team but still provided his "services" free to the visiting player.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

for those of you that said she lost conciousness, can i ask what medical school you attended which trained you to make that diagnosis from the chair in front of your computer screen?

while you may play the role of basketball official many evenings during the winter, don't pretend to be a medical professional....if you have a question about it, ask the trainer/medical staff at the game; don't make that judgement on your own.

That is complete garbage...I don't need to be a medical professional to determine that a player appears to lose consciousness. Especially in this video. That kid is leaving and not coming back in without a doctor's approval, and I don't need to ask anyone's permission to do that.

And if you can't tell she appears to lose consciousness from the video, then maybe you need a bigger screen to help with that eyesight problem.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That is complete garbage...I don't need to be a medical professional to determine that a player appears to lose consciousness. Especially in this video. That kid is leaving and not coming back in without a doctor's approval, and I don't need to ask anyone's permission to do that.

And if you can't tell she appears to lose consciousness from the video, then maybe you need a bigger screen to help with that eyesight problem.

Agree totally, PEA seems to have his panties in a bind. I havent' had to make an "unconscious" call yet, that's why I was asking. This forum has correctly guided me in a lot of areas, PEA's post is one of the few that I could do without.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That is complete garbage...I don't need to be a medical professional to determine that a player appears to lose consciousness. Especially in this video. That kid is leaving and not coming back in without a doctor's approval, and I don't need to ask anyone's permission to do that.

And if you can't tell she appears to lose consciousness from the video, then maybe you need a bigger screen to help with that eyesight problem.

Agreed. Besides, wouldn't you rather err on the side of the player's safety rather than saying "Well, I'm no doctor, so I guess she can play..."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Agreed. Besides, wouldn't you rather err on the side of the player's safety rather than saying "Well, I'm no doctor, so I guess she can play..."

I'd rather not have the responsibility; but....

[deecee]

No way did she lose consciousness. She just got her bell rung and didnt want to jump right up. So she laid there for about 3-5 seconds. Ive seen unconscious and bell rung. That is clearly bell rung. Im not stepping in doo unless I have to - I will ask the coach if he wants to sub her out.

also if a player is unconscious you will see all her teammates on the floor calling for help. They will most likely be giving the univeral sign for "someone get your rear end here shes out cold" which we all know is the furious cand wave to call someone over...

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

for those of you that said she lost conciousness, can i ask what medical school you attended which trained you to make that diagnosis from the chair in front of your computer screen?

while you may play the role of basketball official many evenings during the winter, don't pretend to be a medical professional....if you have a question about it, ask the trainer/medical staff at the game; don't make that judgement on your own.

I use to watch Doctor Quinn medicine woman. I see a player lose conciousness, I make them get a Doc's written approval before letting player in again,and I've done something wrong.

I'm on the side of the angels here.