Am I entitled to my spot?

[tjchamp]

Legal guarding position is defined, generally speaking, as two feet on the floor and facing the opponent. In addition every player has a right to a spot on the floor provided the player gets there first (4-23). Who commits the foul when those two statements conflict with each other.

Sit 1: B2 is guarding A2 along the lane line, facing the basket, and moving towards the endline. A1 has the ball on the wing, and is driving to the basket. B2 with back to A1 steps into A1's path before A1 leaves the floor for a shot. B2 is not facing A1. A1 crashes into the back of B2. If a foul is to be called, who would get it? B2 has his right to the spot, he's not even trying to be a defender of A1, but he got to the spot first.

Sit 2: Same situation as above, but now say B2 is trying to be the secondary defender. This clearly would be foul on A1, as B2 has 2 feet on floor and facing opponent.

Sit 3: B2 is somewhere between facing and not facing A1 when the contact occurs.

My inclination is to call a charge in both cases 1&2, yet a block in 3 since he is not facing A1. I am struggling with these scenarios right now, and would like some guidance in how to determine what takes precedence, legal guarding or right to a spot.

Hope I have been clear in the descriptions.

[Adam]

The statements aren't meant to be contradictory, but complimentary. A player is always entitled to his/her spot on the floor if they got there legally. A lack of LGP does not mean they should be charged with the block, it only means they aren't entitled to the additional rights that come with having LGP. Namely, they can't be moving laterally upon contact.

All three of your situations are PC calls, if anything.

[jdw3018]

If B1 is stationary at a spot, LGP is not relevant. Only two things are relevant at that point:

First, is whatever contact occurs a foul?

If the answer is yes, then the secondary question is asked: is an airborne player is involved, and if so did B1 reach the spot before the airborne player A1 became airborne? If not, foul on B1. If so, PC foul on A1.

If there is not an airborne player involved, then displacement of B1 is a PC foul regardless of which way B1 is facing. It cannot be a block (unless B1 is outside vertical plane/makes illegal contact with arms/legs, etc).

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

Legal guarding position is defined, generally speaking, as two feet on the floor and facing the opponent. In addition every player has a right to a spot on the floor provided the player gets there first (4-23). Who commits the foul when those two statements conflict with each other.

Sit 1: B2 is guarding A2 along the lane line, facing the basket, and moving towards the endline. A1 has the ball on the wing, and is driving to the basket. B2 with back to A1 steps into A1's path before A1 leaves the floor for a shot. B2 is not facing A1. A1 crashes into the back of B2. If a foul is to be called, who would get it? B2 has his right to the spot, he's not even trying to be a defender of A1, but he got to the spot first.

Sit 2: Same situation as above, but now say B2 is trying to be the secondary defender. This clearly would be foul on A1, as B2 has 2 feet on floor and facing opponent.

Sit 3: B2 is somewhere between facing and not facing A1 when the contact occurs.

My inclination is to call a charge in both cases 1&2, yet a block in 3 since he is not facing A1. I am struggling with these scenarios right now, and would like some guidance in how to determine what takes precedence, legal guarding or right to a spot.

Hope I have been clear in the descriptions.

Doesn't this mean B2 doesn't have LGP? 2nd criteria for LGP is never met... "The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent."

Block in all three. Or am I missing something?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

Legal guarding position is defined, generally speaking, as two feet on the floor and facing the opponent.

First off, this is not correct. You left off the very first word: Initial. Then, once a player has obtained initial LGP (by starting with 2 feet on the floor and facing the opponant), then they can follow 4-23-3, which describes all of things they can do after initial LGP was obtained: including things like being airborne, not facing the opponent, and turning or ducking to avoid or absorb immenent contact.

Originally Posted by tjchamp

In addition every player has a right to a spot on the floor provided the player gets there first (4-23).

Agreed.

Originally Posted by tjchamp

Who commits the foul when those two statements conflict with each other.

First, you must determine if they are guarding, as per the description in 4-23. If they are, then there are certain limitations involved, especially if the player they are guarding has the ball or not. If they are not guarding that player, then they are simply entitiled to the spot on the floor, provided they get to the spot first. They just cannot have the other entitlements involving actively guarding.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Or am I missing something?

Yep, the word "initial". (See above.)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Doesn't this mean B2 doesn't have LGP? 2nd criteria for LGP is never met... "The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent."

Block in all three. Or am I missing something?

Yep, you're missing the fact that LGP isn't required to draw a PC foul when the defender is stationary. LGP grants certain rights that aren't otherwise present.

You're really going to call a block on B2, standing still, just because he's guarding someone else when he gets ran over by A1?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Doesn't this mean B2 doesn't have LGP? 2nd criteria for LGP is never met... "The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent."

Block in all three. Or am I missing something?

Important note that many miss: Legal Guarding Position isn't required for a PC foul in all instances. It's only a factor when the defender is moving laterally, obliquely, or backwards when the contact occurs.

If the defender is stationary before contact (and before a player becomes airborne) then LGP doesn't apply/matter.

[Adam]

A player without LGP may also be moving and still draw a PC foul.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The statements aren't meant to be contradictory, but complimentary.

Huh? I didn't know we were required by rule to tell coaches they have on a nice tie tonight....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Huh? I didn't know we were required by rule to tell coaches they have on a nice tie tonight....

It's not required, but it never hurts to notice her shoes.

Wait, wrong web site thread; never mind.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's not required, but it never hurts to notice her shoes.

Wait, wrong web site; never mind.

You trying to get this thread deleted too?

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yep, you're missing the fact that LGP isn't required to draw a PC foul when the defender is stationary. LGP grants certain rights that aren't otherwise present.

You're really going to call a block on B2, standing still, just because he's guarding someone else when he gets ran over by A1?

No, when I think about it obviously not. I guess I just am not sure if I've ever seen this happen.

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Important note that many miss: Legal Guarding Position isn't required for a PC foul in all instances. It's only a factor when the defender is moving laterally, obliquely, or backwards when the contact occurs.

If the defender is stationary before contact (and before a player becomes airborne) then LGP doesn't apply/matter.

Makes sense. Thanks for the help.

[rsl]

Is it true that

- When a defender with LGP moves laterally and contacts a player with the ball, time and distance are not a factor

- When a defender without LGP moves laterally and contacts a player with the ball, time and distance are factor

Do I have this right? No time time or distance is one of the perks of LGP?

[Adam]

Time and distance are never a factor when defending the player with the ball. Ever.