Am I entitled to my spot?

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

Legal guarding position is defined, generally speaking, as two feet on the floor and facing the opponent. In addition every player has a right to a spot on the floor provided the player gets there first (4-23). Who commits the foul when those two statements conflict with each other.

Sit 1: B2 is guarding A2 along the lane line, facing the basket, and moving towards the endline. A1 has the ball on the wing, and is driving to the basket. B2 with back to A1 steps into A1's path before A1 leaves the floor for a shot. B2 is not facing A1. A1 crashes into the back of B2. If a foul is to be called, who would get it? B2 has his right to the spot, he's not even trying to be a defender of A1, but he got to the spot first.

Sit 2: Same situation as above, but now say B2 is trying to be the secondary defender. This clearly would be foul on A1, as B2 has 2 feet on floor and facing opponent.

Sit 3: B2 is somewhere between facing and not facing A1 when the contact occurs.

My inclination is to call a charge in both cases 1&2, yet a block in 3 since he is not facing A1. I am struggling with these scenarios right now, and would like some guidance in how to determine what takes precedence, legal guarding or right to a spot.

Hope I have been clear in the descriptions.

Doesn't this mean B2 doesn't have LGP? 2nd criteria for LGP is never met... "The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent."

Block in all three. Or am I missing something?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Or am I missing something?

Yep, the word "initial". (See above.)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Doesn't this mean B2 doesn't have LGP? 2nd criteria for LGP is never met... "The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent."

Block in all three. Or am I missing something?

Yep, you're missing the fact that LGP isn't required to draw a PC foul when the defender is stationary. LGP grants certain rights that aren't otherwise present.

You're really going to call a block on B2, standing still, just because he's guarding someone else when he gets ran over by A1?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Doesn't this mean B2 doesn't have LGP? 2nd criteria for LGP is never met... "The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent."

Block in all three. Or am I missing something?

Important note that many miss: Legal Guarding Position isn't required for a PC foul in all instances. It's only a factor when the defender is moving laterally, obliquely, or backwards when the contact occurs.

If the defender is stationary before contact (and before a player becomes airborne) then LGP doesn't apply/matter.

[Adam]

A player without LGP may also be moving and still draw a PC foul.

[rsl]

Is it true that

- When a defender with LGP moves laterally and contacts a player with the ball, time and distance are not a factor

- When a defender without LGP moves laterally and contacts a player with the ball, time and distance are factor

Do I have this right? No time time or distance is one of the perks of LGP?

[Adam]

Time and distance are never a factor when defending the player with the ball. Ever.

[rsl]

By rule, I see you are correct. That is a tough one to get my head around. I'm not seeing exactly what extra advantage LGP gives the defender.

In the OP, suppose B2 with back to A1 jumps just before A1 hits him. A1 still initiates the contact and B2 just happened to be airborne at the time. Now it is a block because B2 does not have LGP?

[Adam]

The extra advantage is that the defender is allowed to be moving sideways when the contact occurs and still not be held responsible for the contact. This is tough because a lot of people don't realize he can do this when he does have LGP. You're right, too, about going airborne. The player has voluntarily given up his spot "on the playing court" when he didn't have the protections afforded with LGP; even if he had no idea. This is how I understand it, anyway.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by rsl

By rule, I see you are correct. That is a tough one to get my head around. I'm not seeing exactly what extra advantage LGP gives the defender.

In the OP, suppose B2 with back to A1 jumps just before A1 hits him. A1 still initiates the contact and B2 just happened to be airborne at the time. Now it is a block because B2 does not have LGP?

B1 is entitled to his spot on the floor - and has vertical protection as well. He's allowed to jump and come back down in that spot. So, again, LGP doesn't factor in.

LGP basically allows a defender to move any direction but towards a ball handler. If contact occurs in the torso while a defender is maintaining LGP, even if he/she is moving at the time of that contact, the responsibility of that contact is on the dribbler.

If, on the other hand, a player without LGP is moving laterally, for example, the contact is the responsibility of the defender. The way I like to think about it is that if both players arrive to a spot simultaneously, a defender with LGP is going to get the call if the contact is in the torso, while a defender without LGP is responsible for contact when simultaneously arriving at a spot.

If one or the other is to a spot first, then LGP doesn't apply.

[rsl]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Time and distance are never a factor when defending the player with the ball. Ever.

I agree, but B2 was not defending A1.

4-24-4a says

ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.

This does not necessarily apply when B2 is not defending A1. Is there another rule that applies to an inadverdent collision, or a collision caused by the ball carrier?

[rsl]

Never mind- Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an
offensive opponent. It doesn't say anything about knowing you are guarding when you are guarding.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by rsl

I agree, but B2 was not defending A1.

4-24-4a says

ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.

This does not necessarily apply when B2 is not defending A1. Is there another rule that applies to an inadverdent collision, or a collision caused by the ball carrier?

The only rule governing a collision where LGP is not involved is that players are entitled to their spot on the floor.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yep, you're missing the fact that LGP isn't required to draw a PC foul when the defender is stationary. LGP grants certain rights that aren't otherwise present.

You're really going to call a block on B2, standing still, just because he's guarding someone else when he gets ran over by A1?

No, when I think about it obviously not. I guess I just am not sure if I've ever seen this happen.

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Important note that many miss: Legal Guarding Position isn't required for a PC foul in all instances. It's only a factor when the defender is moving laterally, obliquely, or backwards when the contact occurs.

If the defender is stationary before contact (and before a player becomes airborne) then LGP doesn't apply/matter.

Makes sense. Thanks for the help.