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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 11, 2002, 04:03pm
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Question

What is the correct call?

Player A1 shoots a baseline jumper. B1 fouls A2 fighting for the rebound. The basket is good and Team A is not in the bonus. I know the basket counts, but who is entitled to the ball, Team A or does it just go to Team B?
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Old Mon Feb 11, 2002, 04:10pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fungo
What is the correct call?

Player A1 shoots a baseline jumper. B1 fouls A2 fighting for the rebound. The basket is good and Team A is not in the bonus. I know the basket counts, but who is entitled to the ball, Team A or does it just go to Team B?
Fungo,
Let's penalize the foul.
That's good off-ball officiating!
mick
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Old Mon Feb 11, 2002, 04:18pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fungo
What is the correct call?
.... Team A or does it just go to Team B?
In a non-bonus situation the ball is awarded to the fouled team, which in this case is Team A.

I'll "second" Mick on the off-ball call!
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Old Mon Feb 11, 2002, 08:00pm
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Unhappy Call it or Pass?

I've been coached on these to pass on this foul if it didn't affect the play (and on a made basket it does not) unless it is particularly rough or it is time to send a message (e.g., things getting out of hand, these 2 are going at it too much).
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Old Mon Feb 11, 2002, 08:11pm
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Lightbulb Re: Call it or Pass?

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Ogg
I've been coached on these to pass on this foul if it didn't affect the play (and on a made basket it does not) unless it is particularly rough or it is time to send a message (e.g., things getting out of hand, these 2 are going at it too much).
Richard,
I agree exactly, but before we start passing on those calls, we, as newer officials, must first recognize that those off-ball fouls do, in fact, exist.
First we take our baby steps, and then we make our leaps and bounds.
mick
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Old Mon Feb 11, 2002, 09:59pm
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I prefer to take care of them early and they usually clean it up somewhat. When B1 is camped out waiting for a rebound and A2 comes flying in, sticks a forearm in his back and dislodges him from the floor I don't pass this up or it continues and even gets worse.
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Old Mon Feb 11, 2002, 11:09pm
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Re: Call it or Pass?

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Ogg
I've been coached on these to pass on this foul if it didn't affect the play (and on a made basket it does not) unless it is particularly rough or it is time to send a message (e.g., things getting out of hand, these 2 are going at it too much).

NO!! NO!! NO!! Whoever is coaching you to pass on this should receive a thousand lashes with a wet noodle. This is a foul on B1 everytime: NFHS, NCAA Men's and Women's, and FIBA.
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Old Mon Feb 11, 2002, 11:19pm
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Oh, my....

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NO!! NO!! NO!! Whoever is coaching you to pass on this should receive a thousand lashes with a wet noodle. This is a foul on B1 everytime: NFHS, NCAA Men's and Women's, and FIBA.
Mark T.,
The Clinics are teaching "flow control" all over the country...Fed and CCA.
mick
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Old Tue Feb 12, 2002, 03:19pm
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Re: Re: Call it or Pass?

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Ogg
I've been coached on these to pass on this foul if it didn't affect the play (and on a made basket it does not) unless it is particularly rough or it is time to send a message (e.g., things getting out of hand, these 2 are going at it too much).

NO!! NO!! NO!! Whoever is coaching you to pass on this should receive a thousand lashes with a wet noodle. This is a foul on B1 everytime: NFHS, NCAA Men's and Women's, and FIBA.
Mark,

Perhaps you should look at the latest points of emphasis from FIBA - it quite specifically says that referees (especially at higher levels) need to concentrate on the flow of the game, and calling fouls according to advantage/disadvantage principles.
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Old Tue Feb 12, 2002, 10:46pm
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In another thread about a similiar play I said that we are not officiating soccer. We are officiating basketball and Newton's Laws of Motions concerning an equal and opposite reaction apply in this play. B1 fouled A2 while the ball was in flight. If the official decides that he is not going to penalize B1 for his illegal actions, it tells A2 that he to, can foul without impunity.

We have gone down this slippery slope of being afraid to penalize a foul because some hot shot officials tell us to not call this foul. And look what is has gotten us: every year we are told to crack down on rough play. When an official does not penalize B1 in this play, the official is contributing to rough play not eliminating it. There is no defense for not calling the foul on B1 in the posted play.

Every year I ask myself: Why are officials afraid to do their job? Call the foul the firs time it happens and the players know that they cannot play in such a rough manner. Do not call the foul and you are telling the players that they can play has rough as they want to play.

This is not a matter of calling ticky tack fouls. It is a matter of making sure that the game is played as intended by the rules. The definition of incidental contact tells us that the actions by B1 in the posted play is a foul and it has to be called.

As far as flow of the game, not penalizing rough play does not improve the flow of the game. Its a foul: NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA.
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Old Tue Feb 12, 2002, 10:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
In another thread about a similiar play I said that we are not officiating soccer. We are officiating basketball and Newton's Laws of Motions concerning an equal and opposite reaction apply in this play. B1 fouled A2 while the ball was in flight. If the official decides that he is not going to penalize B1 for his illegal actions, it tells A2 that he to, can foul without impunity.

We have gone down this slippery slope of being afraid to penalize a foul because some hot shot officials tell us to not call this foul. And look what is has gotten us: every year we are told to crack down on rough play. When an official does not penalize B1 in this play, the official is contributing to rough play not eliminating it. There is no defense for not calling the foul on B1 in the posted play.

Every year I ask myself: Why are officials afraid to do their job? Call the foul the firs time it happens and the players know that they cannot play in such a rough manner. Do not call the foul and you are telling the players that they can play has rough as they want to play.

This is not a matter of calling ticky tack fouls. It is a matter of making sure that the game is played as intended by the rules. The definition of incidental contact tells us that the actions by B1 in the posted play is a foul and it has to be called.

As far as flow of the game, not penalizing rough play does not improve the flow of the game. Its a foul: NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA.
Mark T.,
I do not disagree with your opinion of the way it ought to be.
mick
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2002, 08:07pm
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Thumbs down

Mick,
We as officials decide the way it should be. I think it is time to call a foul a foul. When the post reads B1 FOULS A2 what difference should it make if the basket is good or not. If it is a foul it is a foul. The rules allow for a determination of an advantage gained only on loose ball situations. I get so sick of people telling me that I call too many fouls. I always ask them which FOULS am I not supposed to call. Last night someone told me that I fouled out a player and I had to tell them that I didn't foul them out they fouled themselves out. Thank you for letting me vent on the forum. Mr. DeNucci if I ever move to the Bowling Green area, you will be the first one I call.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2002, 08:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigJoe
Mick,
We as officials decide the way it should be. I think it is time to call a foul a foul. When the post reads B1 FOULS A2 what difference should it make if the basket is good or not. If it is a foul it is a foul. The rules allow for a determination of an advantage gained only on loose ball situations. I get so sick of people telling me that I call too many fouls. I always ask them which FOULS am I not supposed to call. Last night someone told me that I fouled out a player and I had to tell them that I didn't foul them out they fouled themselves out. Thank you for letting me vent on the forum. Mr. DeNucci if I ever move to the Bowling Green area, you will be the first one I call.
BigJoe,
I surely cannot disagree with you, either.
mick
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2002, 08:45pm
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Its soooo nice to work women's. They put it in writting not to call game interupter fouls.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2002, 08:51pm
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If you don't call the foul, it will surely escalate.

I feel the same way about a "held ball". If you have a quick wistle ... the undue roughness will be kept in check.
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