First time, and it happened twice

[representing]

Originally Posted by tjones1

I'll give you the reference... you can look it up when you get your book.

3-3-1a

3-3-1
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the time-out.

So I was correct then. Thanks TJ.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by representing

Not gonna make this easy for me are you? haha. I'll go get my rulebook now.

I made it pretty easy for you.

Originally Posted by representing

3-3-1
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the time-out.

So I was correct then. Thanks TJ.

Yes, you were correct - good call!

[Adam]

Had this the other night, too. I get it about once or twice a year. I was T getting ready to administer a throwin in the FC following a TO, I'm table side. C whistles for a sub just as I'm about to hand it in. I turn and ask the table, who's already shaking his head. "Did he report in time?" "No, he didn't."
Coach didn't say a word.

[Welpe]

Since the OP has been answered, mind if I branch the thread off into a related topic regarding time-outs and subsitutions?

This thread is timely, I was just reading through the section in Rule 10 about substitutes entering without reporting and had a question regarding our duties during a time out.

I don't recall this being mentioned in my training so I'll go ahead and ask a newbie question, should we be taking a note of who the players are during a time-out and that a sub is not sent in without having them report?

If so, is this something you pre-game with your partner(s)?

[representing]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Since the OP has been answered, mind if I branch the thread off into a related topic regarding time-outs and subsitutions?

This thread is timely, I was just reading through the section in Rule 10 about substitutes entering without reporting and had a question regarding our duties during a time out.

I don't recall this being mentioned in my training so I'll go ahead and ask a newbie question, should we be taking a note of who the players are during a time-out and that a sub is not sent in without having them report?

If so, is this something you pre-game with your partner(s)?

My opinion; no. Players are supposed to check in before substituting another player. They know that and becomes a force of habit. If a player tries to sneak in without reporting, that's fine with me as long as I don't see it or notice it. Can't call what you don't see, right? If the opposing coach mentions something about a player who wasn't there before the time out, or the table gets my attention about this, then it is a technical foul for entering the game without reporting to the table, as long as I can confirm with the table that he/she wasn't a player prior to the time out, and has not checked in before time out ended.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Since the OP has been answered, mind if I branch the thread off into a related topic regarding time-outs and subsitutions?

This thread is timely, I was just reading through the section in Rule 10 about substitutes entering without reporting and had a question regarding our duties during a time out.

I don't recall this being mentioned in my training so I'll go ahead and ask a newbie question, should we be taking a note of who the players are during a time-out and that a sub is not sent in without having them report?

If so, is this something you pre-game with your partner(s)?

While awareness is always a good thing, i wouldn't try to remember something like this. It's not really worth the effort for the amount of times you'd actually catch something.

Usually, the way it happens is that, after the timeout has completed, the coach will send the sub to the table, so you'll see it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Since the OP has been answered, mind if I branch the thread off into a related topic regarding time-outs and subsitutions?

This thread is timely, I was just reading through the section in Rule 10 about substitutes entering without reporting and had a question regarding our duties during a time out.

I don't recall this being mentioned in my training so I'll go ahead and ask a newbie question, should we be taking a note of who the players are during a time-out and that a sub is not sent in without having them report?

If so, is this something you pre-game with your partner(s)?

Strictly speaking that is the scorer's job, but if the official notices it, then he should deal with it.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by representing

3-3-1
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the time-out.

So I was correct then. Thanks TJ.

Ok, an interesting question from the table's POV: what is to be done if anyone at the table witnesses a player coming in to sub after the warning horn?

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Ok, an interesting question from the table's POV: what is to be done if anyone at the table witnesses a player coming in to sub after the warning horn?

Allow them to check-in, but not permit them to enter the game.

If the coach causes a fuss about it, call an official over. More than likely the official will ask you if the sub checked in before the warning horn...all ya gotta say is no and the official should take care of it.

[representing]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Allow them to check-in, but not permit them to enter the game.

If the coach causes a fuss about it, call an official over. More than likely the official will ask you if the sub checked in before the warning horn...all ya gotta say is no and the official should take care of it.

This is actually what happened with the first time the substitution happened tonight. I had my back to the table and the team making the sub after the warning horn. I noticed it happened out of the corner of my eyes, but I did hear the scorer or clock operator saying "hey, you can't go in right now." The clock operator is an official himself, so it must have been him saying it. I don't see him officiating much anymore though, he probably likes it better behind the table than on the floor. Doesn't pay as much, if anything probably.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by representing

We are just disagreeing on how many years the word "newer" covers. I was thinking two or three. This is my 6th season officiating. I do accept that I am young and learning, but I don't consider myself a "newer" official.

I do. Many of the things which you write and questions you ask display characteristics of a green official and one who is lacking a solid foundation in rules knowledge. The good thing is that you are participating on this forum where some savvy veterans can help you to improve in those areas.

For example...

Originally Posted by representing

This is actually what happened with the first time the substitution happened tonight. I had my back to the table and the team making the sub after the warning horn. I noticed it happened out of the corner of my eyes, but I did hear the scorer or clock operator saying "hey, you can't go in right now." The clock operator is an official himself, so it must have been him saying it. I don't see him officiating much anymore though, he probably likes it better behind the table than on the floor. Doesn't pay as much, if anything probably.

Why in the world would you have your back to the table during a time-out? You made an error in your positioning here. You should position yourself to observe that area as well as the team benches (at least one of them) until the 2nd horn sounds and then quickly step/turn to your position for resuming play.

[representing]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why in the world would you have your back to the table during a time-out? You made an error in your positioning here. You should position yourself to observe that area as well as the team benches (at least one of them) until the 2nd horn sounds and then quickly step/turn to your position for resuming play.

The OOB spot was in front of the table. My partner is at the center circle where he's supposed to be, and I was standing at the spot of the throw-in for after the time out, facing the playing floor. That's how it's supposed to be done. Can't find it in the rulebook but that is how we do it in this league.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by representing

The OOB spot was in front of the table. My partner is at the center circle where he's supposed to be, and I was standing at the spot of the throw-in for after the time out, facing the playing floor. That's how it's supposed to be done. Can't find it in the rulebook but that is how we do it in this league.

Nope, you are taking your position for the tableside throw-in too quickly. You should stand back a few feet out onto the floor until that second horn sounds, and then step over there to administer the throw-in.

In the 2-person system, you need to keep your eyes on all that you can because there are only two officials. Giving yourself a wide angle and keeping certain areas in view and in front of you is good advice. But don't follow it if you like, and continue to have problems crop up in your games. I'm sure that will get you on those varsity league games real soon.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Allow them to check-in, but not permit them to enter the game.

If the coach causes a fuss about it, call an official over. More than likely the official will ask you if the sub checked in before the warning horn...all ya gotta say is no and the official should take care of it.

So does this mean having a copy of the rule in case this does happen, handy?

This way the coach can't say anything?

[representing]

Originally Posted by chseagle

So does this mean having a copy of the rule in case this does happen, handy?

This way the coach can't say anything?

Not necessary. The official can handle it in this situation once you call one over to the table.

EDIT: to continue, if the coach disagrees with the ruling and thinks the official is wrong, tough luck. I would tell the coach that he can disagree all he wants, but it is in the rule book and that he should look it up after the game. In PA, all coaches receive a copy of the rule book and case book, or are supposed to as per PIAA's requirements. Whether they read it or not, that's up to them.