First time, and it happened twice

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Ok, an interesting question from the table's POV: what is to be done if anyone at the table witnesses a player coming in to sub after the warning horn?

Allow them to check-in, but not permit them to enter the game.

If the coach causes a fuss about it, call an official over. More than likely the official will ask you if the sub checked in before the warning horn...all ya gotta say is no and the official should take care of it.

[representing]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Allow them to check-in, but not permit them to enter the game.

If the coach causes a fuss about it, call an official over. More than likely the official will ask you if the sub checked in before the warning horn...all ya gotta say is no and the official should take care of it.

This is actually what happened with the first time the substitution happened tonight. I had my back to the table and the team making the sub after the warning horn. I noticed it happened out of the corner of my eyes, but I did hear the scorer or clock operator saying "hey, you can't go in right now." The clock operator is an official himself, so it must have been him saying it. I don't see him officiating much anymore though, he probably likes it better behind the table than on the floor. Doesn't pay as much, if anything probably.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Allow them to check-in, but not permit them to enter the game.

If the coach causes a fuss about it, call an official over. More than likely the official will ask you if the sub checked in before the warning horn...all ya gotta say is no and the official should take care of it.

So does this mean having a copy of the rule in case this does happen, handy?

This way the coach can't say anything?

[representing]

Originally Posted by chseagle

So does this mean having a copy of the rule in case this does happen, handy?

This way the coach can't say anything?

Not necessary. The official can handle it in this situation once you call one over to the table.

EDIT: to continue, if the coach disagrees with the ruling and thinks the official is wrong, tough luck. I would tell the coach that he can disagree all he wants, but it is in the rule book and that he should look it up after the game. In PA, all coaches receive a copy of the rule book and case book, or are supposed to as per PIAA's requirements. Whether they read it or not, that's up to them.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by representing

We are just disagreeing on how many years the word "newer" covers. I was thinking two or three. This is my 6th season officiating. I do accept that I am young and learning, but I don't consider myself a "newer" official.

I do. Many of the things which you write and questions you ask display characteristics of a green official and one who is lacking a solid foundation in rules knowledge. The good thing is that you are participating on this forum where some savvy veterans can help you to improve in those areas.

For example...

Originally Posted by representing

This is actually what happened with the first time the substitution happened tonight. I had my back to the table and the team making the sub after the warning horn. I noticed it happened out of the corner of my eyes, but I did hear the scorer or clock operator saying "hey, you can't go in right now." The clock operator is an official himself, so it must have been him saying it. I don't see him officiating much anymore though, he probably likes it better behind the table than on the floor. Doesn't pay as much, if anything probably.

Why in the world would you have your back to the table during a time-out? You made an error in your positioning here. You should position yourself to observe that area as well as the team benches (at least one of them) until the 2nd horn sounds and then quickly step/turn to your position for resuming play.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by representing

Not necessary. The official can handle it in this situation once you call one over to the table.

I was asking about having a copy handy, as it seems that, especially in my case, the scorers I work with have no or little understanding of the rules except for what they need to do & nothing more.

[representing]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why in the world would you have your back to the table during a time-out? You made an error in your positioning here. You should position yourself to observe that area as well as the team benches (at least one of them) until the 2nd horn sounds and then quickly step/turn to your position for resuming play.

The OOB spot was in front of the table. My partner is at the center circle where he's supposed to be, and I was standing at the spot of the throw-in for after the time out, facing the playing floor. That's how it's supposed to be done. Can't find it in the rulebook but that is how we do it in this league.

[representing]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I was asking about having a copy handy, as it seems that, especially in my case, the scorers I work with have no or little understanding of the rules except for what they need to do & nothing more.

Well, if you do that, then it would be fine by me. But I would NEVER open up a rulebook during a game, even if a coach said "hey, there's a rulebook, prove it to me". How ugly would that look to all the players, fans, coaches, administrators, etc.?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by representing

Well, if you do that, then it would be fine by me. But I would NEVER open up a rulebook during a game, even if a coach said "hey, there's a rulebook, prove it to me". How ugly would that look to all the players, fans, coaches, administrators, etc.?

I wasn't meaning having a full rulebook there at the table.

Have a copy of the rule there, like the shot clock instructions I keep with me that I copied from the internet.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I was asking about having a copy handy, as it seems that, especially in my case, the scorers I work with have no or little understanding of the rules except for what they need to do & nothing more.

Shoot, sounds like your talking about fans now!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by representing

The OOB spot was in front of the table. My partner is at the center circle where he's supposed to be, and I was standing at the spot of the throw-in for after the time out, facing the playing floor. That's how it's supposed to be done. Can't find it in the rulebook but that is how we do it in this league.

Nope, you are taking your position for the tableside throw-in too quickly. You should stand back a few feet out onto the floor until that second horn sounds, and then step over there to administer the throw-in.

In the 2-person system, you need to keep your eyes on all that you can because there are only two officials. Giving yourself a wide angle and keeping certain areas in view and in front of you is good advice. But don't follow it if you like, and continue to have problems crop up in your games. I'm sure that will get you on those varsity league games real soon.

[representing]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I wasn't meaning having a full rulebook there at the table.

Have a copy of the rule there, like the shot clock instructions I keep with me that I copied from the internet.

You should copy NFHS 2-11, 2-12 and 2-13 in that case. Pretty much everything else in the rulebook is up to the referee to enforce.

[representing]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, you are taking your position for the tableside throw-in too quickly. You should stand back a few feet out onto the floor until that second horn sounds, and then step over there to administer the throw-in.

In the 2-person system, you need to keep your eyes on all that you can because there are only two officials. Giving yourself a wide angle and keeping certain areas in view and in front of you is good advice. But don't follow it if you like, and continue to have problems crop up in your games. I'm sure that will get you on those varsity league games real soon.

I will take your suggestions in consideration. But this is the way we do it in our league.

And where the hell is it in the rulebook where it states the position of the officials during a time out (or is that a state's thing)? I've been looking through the rulebook for the last 10-15 minutes trying to find the damn thing and can't find it anywhere.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

Shoot, sounds like your talking about fans now!!

In some cases, the person choosen to be scorer basically is a fan.

Considering the personnel I work with when I'm doing scoreboard/timer, for JV & C-Sqaud, don't seem to know the meaning of being neutral while at the table.

Thankfully, when I'm doing shot clock Varsity the table presonnel are neutral to every extent.

[representing]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Thankfully, when I'm doing shot clock Varsity the table presonnel are neutral to every extent.

Which is a good thing. The officials have the power to have a table personnel removed and replaced if he/she feels the table personnel is not cooperating with the officials in the way that they need to be as per Rules 2-11, 2-12 and 2-13.