Words can't describe.... this video.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It looked to me like the shooter in the 2nd video was well inside the arc.

Clearly inside the arc. I'll add something else, and if it's been mentioned, I apologize, haven't read every post. It may have been a clear block, yet we have an airborne shooter who looks like he's fouled before returning to floor. That alone is enough for me to call a foul. Of course, the angle is bad, it's a video, and I'm a good 60 feet away.

Like taking a hit on 16, I'm always protecting the airborne shooter.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

JR,
Did not say the "head coach", I said the bench -- which was much closer to the play than 54 feet -- more like 25 feet. Appeared to have a better angle than the official on this play.

Probably a little.

First of all none of us have a great angle. The officials are much closer to the play and just because there is contact does not mean anything. I love it when coaches ask the dumbest question of all, "There wasn't contact on that?" What the heck does that have to do with anything? All contact is not a foul. It looked like a steal to me and there might have been some contact afterward, but I cannot say that for sure looking at this (particular) tape.

I agree with JR, you are thinking like a coach. There is no way the bench had a better look than two officials on this play. No way whatsoever.

Peace

[fullor30]

I'm witholding a comment until Chseagle tells his position on this one and how the table would come into play.

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I'm witholding a comment until Chseagle tells his position on this one and how the table would come into play.

Probably what I should of done too, gosh darn it!

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all none of us have a great angle. The officials are much closer to the play and just because there is contact does not mean anything. I love it when coaches ask the dumbest question of all, "There wasn't contact on that?" What the heck does that have to do with anything? All contact is not a foul. It looked like a steal to me and there might have been some contact afterward, but I cannot say that for sure looking at this (particular) tape.

I agree with JR, you are thinking like a coach. There is no way the bench had a better look than two officials on this play. No way whatsoever.

Peace

First of all, I look at a play -- not as an official, coach, player, but as a person. Secondly, the Center appears to have a terrible angle. Not only that, he did not have what it took to issue the first technical when a coach can running out after him. Expecting him to make a big call in the last 15 seconds of a three point game is something I would not expect -- whether it should be made or not.

As I stated initially, the actions of this coach were completely out of line -- including the actions during the time out on the first video. At the same time, I do not view officials' calls as being infallible. The signal the official was giving appears to be one indicating that the player could not release the ball. While the video is not clear, it appeared as though the player got much more than ball on this play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

First of all, I look at a play -- not as an official, coach, player, but as a person. Secondly, the Center appears to have a terrible angle. Not only that, he did not have what it took to issue the first technical when a coach can running out after him. Expecting him to make a big call in the last 15 seconds of a three point game is something I would not expect -- whether it should be made or not.

Well I only look at plays like these as an official. Sorry, I have been in these situations and I do not care what a person would think without looking at this through my experiences as an official.

And honestly none of us know what was said or what was not said. That might have been part of the reason he did not give a T and his partner (who was closer) did. That has nothing to do with the ruling on the play. Now without talking to that official, we have no idea why a foul was not called and we certainly do not know why a T was not given by that official. For all you know (and me too) he might not have heard the coach at all. Not all officials have the same triggers for given Ts and to say he did not have the ball or heart is not really realistic all the time.

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

As I stated initially, the actions of this coach were completely out of line -- including the actions during the time out on the first video. At the same time, I do not view officials' calls as being infallible. The signal the official was giving appears to be one indicating that the player could not release the ball. While the video is not clear, it appeared as though the player got much more than ball on this play.

I never said the officials could not have missed the call. But I did not see anything on tape that made me feel otherwise. For all I know it was a bad call, but the official for one thing was in a much better position to see everything than this grainy video shows that is for sure. And just because the coach went off does not mean the official did something wrong on a particular call. Again, I have been there where a defender did nothing wrong or illegal, but the player with the ball falls hard to the floor. “People” want fouls to be called on plays like this. Officials should want the play to be called right. You should not call fouls based on what looks bad, you should call fouls when someone does something illegal.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let's see...

The head coach that was complaining was sitting at the end of his bench which was closest to the other team's basket, somewhere around the second lane space. The foul that he wanted called occurred all the way across the court appriximately at around the top of the 3-point arc.

Let's do the math.....

It's 50 feet across the court plus another few feet from the bench.

From where the coach was sitting, it would be about 54 feet down the court at the other end.

Sooooo....54 feet down and 50 feet across...square the hypotenuse...round off....deduct 2 ....add 6 inches for the Ron Jeremy(tm) effect.....and it comes out to occurring one helluva long way away from the coach.

Yup, the FAR bench had a great look at the steal.

You really do think like a coach, don't you?

Nice math, but completely wrong context.

However, the play he was talking about was from the second video----at the top of the key (just 25 from the sideline) and pretty much straight in front of the coach....at most 30 feet from the coach....essentially the same look as a C would have if the C were tableside. The lead was running full speed just trying to beat the play down the court...not exactly an ideal situation to view a play....and the C was also sprinting up the court and was only getting into position well after the incident in question.

I actually don't question the call that (wasn't) made. The video didn't give me any reason to think they got it wrong. (It also didn't have enough clarity to confirm the call either).

You really do just to like to rip on people for the fun of it don't you?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You really do just to like to rip on people for the fun of it don't you?

There was no ripping involved. The point that I was making that the the coach on the FIRST technical was down in the corner at his end of the gym and the play occurred completely across the gym at the other end. There was nowayinhell that the coach had a good look at that play IN MY OPINION. And it was the coach that put on the show and got the "T", not the bench.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There was no ripping involved. The point that I was making that the the coach on the FIRST technical was down in the corner at his end of the gym and the play occurred completely across the gym at the other end. There was nowayinhell that the coach had a good look at that play IN MY OPINION. And it was the coach that put on the show and got the "T", not the bench.

The grainy video shows the defense grabbing the arm of the offense. Even I can see it from my computer screen from my remote location.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

The grainy video shows the defense grabbing the arm of the offense. Even I can see it from my computer screen from my remote location.

That's the rub............From the grainy video, etc that's what you're seeing. The official who is right there may have seen something else. That said,yes, I think he missed a foul from the limited resources I have to view it. I can't be certain. Neither can that coach who is 50-60 feet away.

Reverse the situation and say the trail calls that foul from the coach's location deep in backcourt, You might have opposing coach starring in his own video.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by fullor30

That's the rub...........Neither can that coach who is 50-60 feet away.

Have you ever made a long distance call? You might have been wrong because you were too far away. Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

In my day to day job, I deal with safety issues. I can certainly see a safety concern (even a minor one) from 50 - 60 feet away. I think its possible to have a good look at something with some distance.

Distance offers perspective otherwise, as officials we would try to always be 3 feet away from all of our calls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Have you ever made a long distance call? You might have been wrong because you were too far away. Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

In my day to day job, I deal with safety issues. I can certainly see a safety concern (even a minor one) from 50 - 60 feet away. I think its possible to have a good look at something with some distance.

Distance offers perspective otherwise, as officials we would try to always be 3 feet away from all of our calls.

Do you have a rules reference for your safety issue? I am not finding that reference in the rulebook anywhere.

Peace

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Have you ever made a long distance call? You might have been wrong because you were too far away. Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

In my day to day job, I deal with safety issues. I can certainly see a safety concern (even a minor one) from 50 - 60 feet away. I think its possible to have a good look at something with some distance.

Distance offers perspective otherwise, as officials we would try to always be 3 feet away from all of our calls.

I call a great game from 10 rows up. For one thing, I'm focused on what I'm watching or better said only need to concentrate on view of my choice. There's no pressure, and you do get a great perspective from a distance . I understand what you're saying as well as Jeff. There are no absolutes. I agree with Jeff that there is the possibility the ball was poked loose and the resulting 'hold' is incidental. We just don't know.

We are all in agreement that the coach was acting like a petulant child.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

The grainy video shows the defense grabbing the arm of the offense. Even I can see it from my computer screen from my remote location.

Let me get this straight from you. Grabbing the arm is always a foul?

Do you have a rules reference for that ruling?

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me get this straight from you. Grabbing the arm is always a foul?

Do you have a rules reference for that ruling?

Peace

Grabbing the arm = hold. The hold was on the right forearm of the offensive player and resulted in a possession consequence (advantage not intended by rule) of white losing the ball.

Never said that grabbing (holding) is always a foul. Those are your words. By that logic nothing is a foul.

I understand where everyone is coming from.